When I first came across the posts discussing Lazaris hypnotizing us without their permission, I didn't fully allow how important that is and so I wanted to start this thread in case others might be interested in helping put this in perspective.

Hypnotizing someone without permission is a serious thing and I am very strangly not having a strong emotional reaction to it yet...[g]

Could that be a function of still being "entranced" cultified? possibly. It is also possible that I sort of considered those meditations hypnosis-like anyway, and I wanted my subconcious worked with. It is heinous though, that Lazaris made such a deal about never hypnotizing anyone without their permission.

I understand from research you cannot hypnotize someone against their will. Of course we all agreed to be hypnotized by Lazaris but we perhaps called it "meditation"
That Lazaris lied and called it meditation is fascinating.

I mean imagine if we heard on a tape "And now dear ones, We are going to lead you through HYPNOSIS" There might have been a slightly different reaction
[g]

I am begining to believe that those who listen to Lazaris addictively as I did are in a state of waking hypnosis. I am coming to believe that I have been operating for years under posthypnotic suggestions.

I think those of us heavily into Lazaris became focusbound on Lazaris and the teachings. It became the organizing principle of how I experienced the world.

This intense focus, I am coming to believe is the result of post hypnotic suggestions. The fact that so many others experience their focus being so heavily on Lazaris [instead of say..um..life?] on what Lazaris says on how to fix themselves tells me there is something purposful in this deceit.

Of course, the lie about not hypnotizing us should be enough to shake anyone out of their Lazaris somnabulism.

Is it semantics? do some people just call hypnosis meditation and visa versa??

I don't think so [g] I think Jach knows "Lazaris" is really using hypnosis and calling it meditation. From what I have read hypnosis, the form of it, is pretty standard.

Interesting though, if they would claim a semantical difference in argument. This from an entity who has defined every single human emotion in detail, who has the audacity to tell us what Love is what forgiveness is what all of these subjective personal states of being are. It would be ironic for them to say its all semantics.

CS used to love to boast that while others tell you to love yourself Lazaris teaches you HOW.

I don't disagree with Lazaris' definition of love per se, just that somehow it creeps me out now that they are defining love. If god goddess all that is is comprised of Love as they say, aren't they in effect, defining god with the 14 point checklist?

To be fair Lazaris always said love was an alchemy that couldnt really be defined, so maybe I am off on that..

At any rate one very interesting bit of information about hypnosis, dont know if anyone has mentioned it here or not..but I find it fascinating.

You do not have to be relaxed to be hypnotized, just focused. You can be totally stressed, nervous and fearful and be hypnotized..

Food for thought..

Cheers,

Jeremiah

One other point about hypnosis and Lazaris.

Lazaris seminars are attended by psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals many strong adherents to the material.

These people MUST know they are being hypnotized since it would have been part of their training? maybe not?

Thoughts?

Cheers,

Jeremiah said: It is also possible that I sort of considered those meditations hypnosis-like anyway, and I wanted my subconcious worked with.

I have come to believe that any form of consciousness enhancement technique, can and at times are abused by cults to program people, and ultimately gain a much stronger control over people.

It doesnt matter if what is used is endless droning talking, singing sessions, official meditation, guided imagery, or anything else.

I think it is extremely important to recognize the potential for such techniques to be abused, and used against us, so we can find ways of protecting ourselves against it. It is also important to recognize that such programing can, and will last for a very long time if it is not recognized and counteracted.

I think it is also necessary to recognize that altered, or I prefer to just call it different, states of mind are actually quite normal. I believe that everyone does it in different ways, and to different degrees.

I for one know that I can enter several different kinds of altered states really easily and quickly. Sometimes in a matter of seconds. I often have to focus more on learning not to do that, than on learning to do it.

I say several different kinds of altered states, as I also believe there are some significant differences in the experience, and result of altered states, however no matter what the experience of it is, it can be used to gain control over us.

Jeremiah said: I understand from research you cannot hypnotize someone against their will.

I would love to see that research, is it on the net? I would strongly dispute that statement, but I would like to see the whole research so I can better understand the context.

Jeremiah said: I am begining to believe that those who listen to Lazaris addictively as I did are in a state of waking hypnosis. I am coming to believe that I have been operating for years under posthypnotic suggestions.

I think that is a reasonable thing to atleast question inside yourself. There are probably several different programs running there, including I would hazard a guess several which are fear based.

Of course you would know that much better than I do though :o).

Jeremiah said: I think those of us heavily into Lazaris became focusbound on Lazaris and the teachings. It became the organizing principle of how I experienced the world.

Makes sense.... I wonder what that means to you now when you are leaving?

Jeremiah said: Is it semantics? do some people just call hypnosis meditation and visa versa??

Well, I do believe that the lines between different altered states, and the techniques to get to those states are blurred I have to admit that.

No matter, it is up to us to find out how we can protect ourselves when we do enter such altered states.

Jeremiah said: CS used to love to boast that while others tell you to love yourself Lazaris teaches you HOW.

Thus, making a intensely personal strong emotion like Love, something ridiculously simple, easy, and very much black and white. Part of the lure of cults of course is that they offer easy, fast answers to life's complexities.

Jeremiah said: If god goddess all that is is comprised of Love as they say, aren't they in effect, defining god with the 14 point checklist?

Creepy huh?

Jeremiah said: To be fair Lazaris always said love was an alchemy that couldnt really be defined, so maybe I am off on that..

Ohh.. Another typical cult trait is to have two, or more, sets of teachings.

One which you show people early on, and which is so clean it can be presented to everyone. This teaching also serve to keep questioners off balance, because of the rightness of that teaching.

A second one which is not shown right away, until the initiate is "ready", which is usually a lot less benign, and which will keep people confused and off balance.

Jeremiah said: These people MUST know they are being hypnotized since it would have been part of their training? maybe not?

Wellllll.. Sometimes it is hard to notice for ourselves when we break that barrier into an altered state of mind. Maybe because it is a normal thing that we do.

It is also my unfortunate experience that even psychology/psychiatry professionals have an extreme lack of knowledge of what mind control is, how altered states of mind function, how those altered states of mind often are abused by cults etc.

In fact this lack of knowledge is pervading not only in the psychology/psychiatry industry, but also among religious leaders of various kinds.

If they dont know this information they will be just as vulnerable as the next guy for the con men.

Jeremiah said: Thoughts?

Yeahh.. Plenty, dont I always :o).

BTW, Jeremiah, sorry if my initial posts to you came across a little too touchy feely for your personal taste buds. I do have friends who often tell me to get out of the sugar bowl, as I am beginning to make them diabetic :o). It is part of who I am though so I guess they, and you will just have to live with it.

Knowledge of cults, and how to recover is very close to my heart, and I do get emotional about it myself.

Kind regards
Malene

Welcome! Ever since I made my first post in November I've been visiting this website on a daily basis, sometimes two or three times a day just to see what gem of insight has been left here. So I take my first day off, and when I come back not only a new thread but a cornucopia of posts! Is this what abundance feels like? :)

Anyway, I wanted to thank you for sharing your story and your thoughts. I admire your decision to leave the Forum in the way you did. I know every person's journey here has strenghtened me in one way or another. This is a priceless gift we give to one another, to share the steps of our path.

I think it was my post that you are referring to in your discussion about being hypnotized without permission. I am reposting it here for reference and so others don't have to dig through the threads to find it for background clarification.

I'm glad you started this thread because this "incident" has opened up other questions for me as well and I am glad for the opportunity to further explore them.

posted 01-23-2000 10:13 AM MT (US)

"Dear Lorca,

Welcome! I am so glad to see you here.

You wrote: [[ I have gotten a sense of myself having been addicted to following the material. And that I gave up my spiritual authority inspite of seeing myself as an independent thinker. I feel that I allowed this to happen because the material emphasized things like individuality, becoming more yourself, and using the "tools" (tapes, meditations, etc.) to enhance one's own relationship with higher forms of consciousness. Probably the same things that attracted others who wanted to grow, but were turned off by teachings involving a "master" and directives concerning areas like sex, food or clothing. ]]

Wow, I think you really hit it right on the head! And that's what makes this so insidious. It's one thing to be outright assaulted, it's another to be seduced and I have come to believe that that's what Jach/Lazaris does. It slowly robs you of your own power while giving you the illusion you are claiming and developing it.

"Addiction" is a good word to describe the hold of our relationship with Lazaris. I am now more able to see just how dependent many people are on Lazaris' guidance all the while thinking they are developing a greater sense of trust in themselves.

There are some posts on one of these threads on the hypnosis techniques Jach/Lazaris uses in the meditations - that the meditations are just that, hypnotherapy sessions and I made at least one.

But for the past several weeks my grieving and sorrow of letting go what I thought I had with Lazaris had reached a new depth. Most of my focus previously had been on the Forum members, Peny, Jach...but while there were what I called some "inconsistencies" in Lazaris' teachings, and irresponsibility and lack of character in his endorsement of Peny as this exceptional enlightened being, I had not believed he had ever directly out and out lied to me.

But when I realized through my research that his meditations followed the structure of a hypnotherapy session as defined and practiced by hypnotherapists I was absolutely devastated.

Only now can I publically share these thoughts and feelings...I needed to distance myself from them for a while, because what I now knew was too much for me to accept...for it goes beyond the meditations actually being hypnotherapy to Lazaris lying about it.

I remember sitting in a seminar where Lazaris, himself, brought up the subject of hypnosis. In that seminar he said that they NEVER practiced hypnosis on us and NEVER would without our direct and conscious permission.

"They" further went on to explain that when someone was trying to hypnotize you they spoke in low monotone voice and spoke slower and slower as the hypnosis went on. "They" said that's why they always interjected jokes and used humor to make sure we weren't lulled into a hypnotic trance by their voice, and why they always varied their speed when they talked and interjected irregular pauses instead of rhythmic regular ones.

While that's true, those techniques are used in many cult sessions by speakers in their lectures and Lazaris didn't do that in his talks, he then carried that over to include his meditations and offered that as proof that he never hypnotized us ever before.

But a hypnotherapy session is NOT defined by those characteristics...although they may or may not be included. A hypnotherapy session follows the structure of a Lazaris "meditation" or rather the Lazaris "meditation" is based on the steps of a hypnotherapy session - the whole process of inducing a trance or altering your consciousness, creating a sense of safety, the guided visualizations, the options of choice within the visualizations, leading you to experience other aspects of yourself or other consciousnesses, the method of ending the session, the whole spiel is what a hypnotherapy session looks like.

I previously did not know that.

You can go to a hypnotherapist and get the same thing, albeit WITHOUT, the promise of eternal love and personal intimacy with the benevolent being who is leading the session...if the hypnotist is ethical that is.

So at this seminar, Lazaris then asks for our permission to hypnotize us...(as if he had never hypnotized us before)...so that "they" might implant a suggestion in our subconscious for a very powerful reality creating technique. (I am just floored every time I think about this...I can tell you this show of asking permission was a major trust builder for me!)

Of course, presumably everyone in that room said yes in their minds, because Lazaris
then took us on a "hypnosis" session...giving us the option to quit any time (which is another quality of a hypnosis session). He used the monotone voice and the long rhythmic pauses between words and the slowing down of speed, which was markedly different from the "meditations" he normally led us on.

The thing that sticks with me the most is that after the session was done, Lazaris said, "Now you know what it's like to be hypnotized and now you can tell if someone is trying to hypnotize you."

And wasn't I just so grateful to have a friend look out for me like he did?

It took me years and years later, this board and visiting various hypnosis websites to realize what hypnosis really is...and not the crap that Lazaris fed me.

Lazaris used a half truth - the characteristics of hypnosis that unscrupulous speakers use while lecturing - to intentionally mislead and deceive us into believing that if these particular characteristics are not in a "guided meditation" then it is not hypnosis. AND he then gave us an "example" of what he claimed a hypnosis session was to throw us off track from the truth under the guise of empowering us to know the truth!!! Oh my god!!!

Now how can I twist that one around to keep my belief that Lazaris might be real --
whether real as in a real entity or real as in a genuine trustworthy being? I can't and the tears fall...

I don't know why Jach/Lazaris chose to bring up hypnosis at that time, except maybe the question arose as to "their" methods. But I do know that whole scenario was a deliberate deception and this deception was carried out under the pretense of showing respect for us and concern for our ability to discern.

I am a believer in the power of hypnotherapy to heal - now that I know what it is, and evidently I've been doing it for a long, long time - over a decade's worth. I've experienced great healing in those sessions with Lazaris. What pisses the hell out of me is that NO ONE EVER ASKED ME FOR MY PERMISSION TO BE HYPNOTIZED.

I gave Lazaris permission to take me on a meditation, not hypnotized and even according to him there's a difference!

And not only did Lazaris NOT call a spade a spade, but he went out of his way to call it something else.

The unethicalness of it all!!! No one has a right to hypnotize you without your permission, and Jach/Lazaris knows this...that's why "they" made such a big show out of asking permission in this huge charade of honest exchange and information.

Peny, Jach and the Forum gang often accuses ex-Forum members as being angry people...no shit. We got reasons.

We are all on a journey of discovery, I think, Lorca. And I do thank you for sharing yours. I want you to know that your above quote makes it easier for me to be a little more compassionate towards myself and perhaps a little easier to forgive myself for having given so much of my trust and power away for so long.

I look forward to reading more of your posts. May your journey of reclaiming your power be gentle...I know reading the words of other seekers here brings me great comfort.

I am still trying to sort this out...and I probably will for quite some time to come. I've heard others, besides yourself, Jeremiah, express that the thought of being hypnotized didn't really bother them. Some have expressed that they knew that's what was going on.

But I know I didn't. I believed there was a difference between the two, and part of that is because I heard Lazaris, himself, say there was.

For me there's the issue of being hypnotized without my permission, and then there's the whole other issue of being lied to by Lazaris. He's supposed to be outside of this set, isn't he? Isn't he supposed to be incredibly trustworthy because he's not subject to human desires and prejudices?

There's a tendency to want to separate Lazaris from Peny and the Forum. A very dear friend told me that they didn't care what those around Lazaris did, that it didn't affect their relationship with Lazaris or what Lazaris directly said to them or did.

Okay, let's forget about his endorsement of Peny and what that entails. Let's forget the Forum. Let's just look at Lazaris, himself. The point is, Lazaris did lie and in my case, he lied directly to me. And it wasn't a small "white" lie. It was a deliberate act of deception under the guise of love and empowering us.

Others have since said they also remember Lazaris going through this thing of asking for permission to hypnotize as well.

This lie is what really blew things apart for me. And it really does matter if Lazaris isn't consistent in other areas besides our own immediate relationship! Think about it!

It really does matter if people are getting abused at the hands of others because of the special status Lazaris gives those others - even if you or I or anyone else is benefiting from the material or their own relationship with "Lazaris".

It matters because people matter and what's good isn't solely determined by whether it's your precious self that benefits from it or not.

We are not alone. And what happens to other people matters, and if it doesn't then you better start worrying about your own sweet little butt, because you might find it on the hot seat the next time...and then you're going to wish that that mattered to others.

(Even though I'm using the pronoun "you", I'm not directing this ranting at you, by the way, Jeremiah! I'm just getting animated and passionate about what I am realizing more and more each day!)

What kind of mapmakers are we anyway if we can turn off our concern for others in the name of getting to be mapmakers for the good of humanity??? How convoluted is that?

When the rose colored glasses come off, then you start to name things you've always "seen" but discarded, rationalized or conveniently forgot.

It's not just the hypnotizing issue. I remember another seminar where Lazaris/Jach was talking about working with our chemistry...and with that cute little grin of his, as he was talking stopped and said, that yes, that was it. Once we had our chemistry corrected, we were essentially home free - free to create, program whatever. But that we had done the work with our blockages, poisons, contracts, child/adolescent, negative ego etc, and all we had to do is take care of the chemistry. We had all the techniques we needed. There wasn't anything else to be "fixed".

Yet, wouldn't you know it??? After that there was shadow work - the spiritual imperative, and more stuff and more stuff...all work we still needed to do to deal with our negativity.

And you know what I told myself to reconcile this disparity between what he said in one seminar and the further techniques and issues that then followed? I told myself that if I had done it right, if I had allowed it to work, the chemistry work would have been the last hurdle for me...however, because I wasn't ready to let go of my own negativity, Lazaris was now providing me with other ways of dealing with what I still have to overcome, but am stubbornly refusing to let go, because I wouldn't let the previous methods work. It's not his inconsistency, it's my limitations, my faultiness.

In this Lazaris fog, when in doubt, always doubt yourself - not this great nonphysical being or the person they endorse. If there's something wrong with this picture, it's you.

Of course I still have work to do...and quite a bit of it is dealing with the impact of being lied to by Jach in the guise of Lazaris...or if you need to still believe Lazaris is real, then by Lazaris, himself.

But at least, I don't have to go through this alone. I can't begin to tell you how much I value each of your thoughts and insights - everyone who has chosen to post.

And every person who chooses to read with an open mind and willing heart, no matter how trembling, know your energy makes a difference here too.

I know what you mean, it pissed me off when I figured it out, but when I read of a successful lawsuit against a group for doing that, I really started to wake up to the seriousness of such an insidious invasion. I think our reactions to these things come in waves. Funny how the sight of someone else defending themselves can open one to the personal realization of abuse.

"Could that be a function of still being "entranced" cultified? possibly."

I know that I am easily entranced, especially at the sound of Lazaris' voice. I am noticing many "triggers" in music, certain words or concepts can send me back into "Lazaris" feelings. I am trying to remain conscious of this, and watch and listen to myself carefully. It's a trip, actually to realize how mind controlled I really was. I see it more clearly every day. I have removed all my crystals to the balcony outside my bedroom, and I'm trying to figure out what to do with them now. I'm afraid to even start trying to work with them again, I'm so saturated with crystal b.s., I don't know what's real about them. I know one thing, the crystal skulls are all leaving, all but one.

"It is also possible that I sort of considered those meditations hypnosis-like anyway, and I wanted my subconcious worked with. It is heinous though, that Lazaris made such a deal about never hypnotizing anyone without their permission."

Yes, I noticed from the beginning the similarities of the "meditations" to hypnosis, I always knew they were not in any way meditations, because I know what meditation really is, but that was more stuff I just blew off in my zeal to get all the magical, mystical information and healings. It is heinous and criminal to hypnotize another without their knowledge and permission. We were manipulated to give permission without realizing what we were actually permitting.

"That Lazaris lied and called it meditation is fascinating. "

I always just considered it a misuse of the term, why the hell didn't I ever question the use of that term? It makes me crazy to think about what a sheep I was. Meditation is a completely different experience, it has nothing whatsoever to do with being led by anyone, or having images provided. It is a private and personal exercise in quieting the mind not having it stimulated.

"I mean imagine if we heard on a tape "And now dear ones, We are going to lead you through HYPNOSIS" There might have been a slightly different reaction[g]"

Yeah, one of them might have been to save some money and go to our local hypnotist instead of shelling out the big bucks for the workshops, airfare, hotels, etc. Given what I read on the adventures in living hypnosis site, a hypnotherapist trained in Alchemical Hypnotherapy could provide a much more personalized and appropriate opportunity for us to explore our personal metaphors and archetypes, and apply those to our specific life images, assuming we would want to pursue that type of therapy, or trust a hypnotist.

Our dear Paramahansa Yogananda long ago cautioned against repeated hypnosis sessions, explaining that they could be very damaging to the mind. I think I'll read up on that some more and review what he said.

I hate the realization that Jach the Mind Ripper takes it upon himself to provide such a generic form of "therapy" for people, some of whom are dealing with serious life issues. It's dangerous, unethical, and disgusting to me.

"I am begining to believe that those who listen to Lazaris addictively as I did are in a state of waking hypnosis. I am coming to believe that I have been operating for years under posthypnotic suggestions."

Yep, me too. That sure is one logical explanation for the obsessiveness.

"I think those of us heavily into Lazaris became focusbound on Lazaris and the teachings. It became the organizing principle of how I experienced the world."

Absolutely true for me and Ted too. I may just have eroded my relationship with my only daughter beyond repair because I did that. How's that for magic and miracles?

"This intense focus, I am coming to believe is the result of post hypnotic suggestions. The fact that so many others experience their focus being so heavily on Lazaris [instead of say..um..life?] on what Lazaris says on how to fix themselves tells me there is something purposful in this deceit."

Me too, I believe it is purposeful, carefully thought out, and some how justified, don't ask me how. Hell, maybe Peny is the worlds foremost mind controller, and she had Jach under her spell, and has trained him to do this. I actually believe that is true on some level. Who knows how much of an independant mind Jach, or anyone around The Divine Ms. Peny has left?

"Of course, the lie about not hypnotizing us should be enough to shake anyone out of their Lazaris somnabulism."

LOL, I'm shaking away here. Sounds like a disco tune coming .......shake shake shake shake your mind free!

"Is it semantics? do some people just call hypnosis meditation and visa versa?

I don't think so [g] I think Jach knows "Lazaris" is really using hypnosis and calling it meditation. From what I have read hypnosis, the form of it, is pretty standard."

No, no, absolutely not. Meditation is a very specific technique, it is achieved in complete silence, and is totally personal. Even the fakiest of the fake meditation gurus shut up when it's time to meditate. Like I said, in a way, meditation is silence, not all that mysterious actually.

"Interesting though, if they would claim a semantical difference in argument. This from an entity who has defined every single human emotion in detail, who has the audacity to tell us what Love is what forgiveness is what all of these subjective personal states of being are. It would be ironic for them to say its all semantics."

Yes, it would be interesting to ask the question of "Lazaris" to see what they had to say. Of course, you know as well as I do, that you couldn't ask that question in the Forum and get an answer, you'd be accused of having some kind of soul disease or be deemed lacking in gratitude or something. No questions answered there, only lessons taught.

"CS used to love to boast that while others tell you to love yourself Lazaris teaches you HOW."

Yeah, lesson number 1. Worship Peny as the Embodiment of Love". No thanks.

"I don't disagree with Lazaris' definition of love per se, just that somehow it creeps me out now that they are defining love. If god goddess all that is is comprised of Love as they say, aren't they in effect, defining god with the 14 point checklist?
To be fair Lazaris always said love was an alchemy that couldnt really be defined, so maybe I am off on that.."

Snap out of it holy man, you know what love is {g} Did we really need Lazaris to define it for us? No, we can't always find the words, but we sure as hell know the feeling. I think it's safe to say that every one of us has had the experience of pure unadulterated joyful bliss love at least once.

That is another point in favor of true meditation, because that is the goal, to access that fathomless pool of pure clear mind bending heart opening undeniable LOVE........in the silence of devotion and desire....not from through the guided imagery of some megalomaniacal, wanna be, overpriced guru.

"At any rate one very interesting bit of information about hypnosis, dont know if anyone has mentioned it here or not..but I find it fascinating.
You do not have to be relaxed to be hypnotized, just focused. You can be totally stressed, nervous and fearful and be hypnotized.. "

So we have discovered!

"Food for thought.."

Much.

Thank you for a wonderfully thought inspiring post.

Oh and Multi Level stuff......do you know how may times at seminars people tried to go there with all different biz ideas.....I always felt bad saying NO and all my friends said yes....and acted like I was really missing out....not tradevest but many there were into that stuff. Anyone remember Quo Vadis? Flying around the workshops for a while.....Supposed to be a money machine if you signed up. Everyone said to me, well we know you won't do it but we don't want to hear about it when we make all the money and you complain that we never asked you. Well I said, get the money. If you beleive it maybe it will happen. I just can't hold on to it (belief wise) so I will pass......nobody made any money needless to say despite grids and the down lines with all of the c/s loyals........

[[Snap out of it holy man, you know what love is {g} Did we really need Lazaris to define it for us? No, we can't always find the words, but we sure as hell know the feeling.]]

LOL..yeah I know what love is..its bilking your friends out of money, being hideously nasty, just plain hideous, vengeful, pathetic and arrogant?

Just like that sacred cow Peny, right?

Cheers,

Hey.. great to talk to you.

you wrote:
[[Anyone remember Quo Vadis? Flying around the workshops for a while....]]

Jesus, ANOTHER scam?? Was this a CS perpetration? I am glad your discernment kicked in...[note that word was around LONG before Jach/Zaris ever started throwing it around]

It is funny that the very things that were taught could be used to easily discredit CS/Lazaris and the big Northeaster herself[g].

Malene mentioned in another post that she had the same experience in her group. Applying the teachings to the teacher can be the window out.

Best,

You wrote:

[[It really does matter if people are getting abused at the hands of others because of the special status Lazaris gives those others - even if you or I or anyone else is benefiting from the material or their own relationship with "Lazaris". ]]

I agree, it really does matter.

To quote Marshal McLuhan "The medium is the message"

LOL..This medium certainly is his own message..[g]

Christ, they didn't invent love or reality creation or arhetypes or shadow work or anything else of value they talk about.

Those are all great truths/concepts that stand on their own. They are sullied only by the soot from those greedy little mits of Pursel/NorthNorth.

I mean hell, the nuns that taught me in gradeschool talked about god and love..

I am so glad you wrote about this because I am sure it will help me jog my memory for the inconsitencies and lies I was offered by Lazaris and swept under the rug.

Thanks

You wrote:

[[Jeremiah said: I understand from research you cannot hypnotize someone against their will.

[[I would love to see that research, is it on the net? I would strongly dispute that statement, but I would like to see the whole research so I can better understand the context.

On the adventures in living site that is linked elsewhere on this site [ I don't know how to do hypertext] the guy who runs it lists a series of myths about hypnosis, one being that you can hypnotize someone against there will.

Hell, I am no expert so I dont know but I took it to mean that there has to be a level of cooperation on the part of the subject. Even if perhaps, the hypnotizer doesn't come right out and say that is what they are doing.

You wrote:

[[Ohh.. Another typical cult trait is to have two, or more, sets of teachings]]

Very interesting. I didn't know that but it makes sense.

you wrote:

[[BTW, Jeremiah, sorry if my initial posts to you came across a little too touchy feely for your personal taste buds. I do have friends who often tell me to get out of the sugar bowl, as I am beginning to make them diabetic :o). It is part of who I am though so I guess they, and you will just have to live with it.]]

No need to be sorry, you didn't come off touch feely at all IMO, but I think you noticed my discomfort so I will address it.

I felt I wasn't getting across how friggin good it felt to dump these cads. I felt stronger and more centered than I had in years doing that and I didn't want people to get the erroneous impression I was dismayed.

I was dismayed, for years, trying to make a circle fit into a very square channel.[g]

Other emotions abound, anger, hurt but the relief is intoxicating..but the conflict is gone. I am less conflicted now than in many years.. I felt you were approaching me on the assumption my emotional state was something it wasn't..no big deal..really...

I really, really appreciate your perspective and all you are writing here..thanks.

Cheers,

Jeremiah said: On the adventures in living site that is linked elsewhere on this site [ I don't know how to do hypertext]

Ohh, ok, thanks I will see if I can find it.

Jeremiah said: the guy who runs it lists a series of myths about hypnosis, one being that you can hypnotize someone against there will.

Hmmm... Interesting statement. I dont believe it for a second though.

Jeremiah said: Hell, I am no expert so I dont know but I took it to mean that there has to be a level of cooperation on the part of the subject.

In my mind everyone goes through different states of mind all the time. Some of those we call altered states of mind. Hypnosis is an altered state of mind.

I think we can hypnotize ourselves, and I think we can be hypnotized or hypnotize ourselves without even knowing that we are.

Which means, sure you cant be put under if you fight it, but if you dont know what is going on, how to notice when you are in such a state, and how to stop it from happening that really does leave you vulnerable.

Anyways, I am not an expert either. But those statements are based in my own experiences and opinions.

Jeremiah said: I felt I wasn't getting across how friggin good it felt to dump these cads. I felt stronger and more centered than I had in years doing that and I didn't want people to get the erroneous impression I was dismayed.

Hey thanks for your honesty. I am finding it very emotional to sit here and watch all you folks shed your handcuffs and move on. For me the first time after that was a very hard time, and I am remembering that as I talk to you guys.

In other words I was not fully listening, but projecting my own memories.. Sovvy...

I am also sitting around cheering at the incredible honesty, and strength that I am seeing from all of you folks leaving your group.

It is fantastic to watch all of you go through this time with so much honesty, and do the right thing.

Jeremiah said: Other emotions abound, anger, hurt but the relief is intoxicating..but the conflict is gone. I am less conflicted now than in many years.. I felt you were approaching me on the assumption my emotional state was something it wasn't..no big deal..really...

Yes, I see that now, I also completely understand the drunken sense of freedom you are talking about.

Jeremiah said: I really, really appreciate your perspective and all you are writing here..thanks.

Hey anytime :o).

Malene <---- now getting her paw outta da sugar pot.