I have to agree with the assesment that one or both of you may have thrown away a portion of your spirituality. All of it?! Hell no.

I have known Lazaris for over 15 years as an entity in my dreams and as quite seperate and distinct from Jach Purcel. IMO, Peny North is now: a scam MLM failure-denial-damaged, dominating, far right wing spirit cult-pushing bully in massive denial. She wasn't always.

IMO there is hypocricy among some on this site. Some here say they "allow" the view that Lazaris and other non-physical phenomena exist.

After my experience here, I can say with certainty that for some, this is not so. And IMO: that is right where your "negative ego" may want you.

Deny all but that our five physical senses tell, and we may be, then, fully trapped by the "negative ego".

Deny it's very existance and, in my experience, you're then playing with psychic dynamite.

I've considering leaveing this BBS because some here have attacked the confidence and experience I sense in: realities, entities, and individuals beyond the five physical senses. They do seem to make some here.. quite uncomfortable.

Cheers with what you / we really want here -- and best wishes.

Please reconsider these non-physical possibilities -- and take close care,

Steve

Everybody that I have seen writing here is quite open-minded and willing to allow others to believe whatever they want. Except, lately, you. You seem to need everybody to believe the same way that you do, otherwise you become very frustrated and then vulgar, crude and aggressive. What's the deal?

If Malene got you so upset, why did you answer her at all? Do you think that it is the behavior of someone who has his "masculine and feminine balanced" to become rude and nasty? It is not.

And, you know, passive-aggressive behavior is still passive-AGGRESSIVE. I am sure that you are reading this, and enjoying the idea that you are "punishing" people by staying silent.

Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny were parts of my reality for a few years, showing up in dreams too. And my "negative ego" would have loved for them to stay as parts of my reality because it could do a much more thorough job on me if I was a moron. But, I'm not.

Certainly, I believe that there is much more out there that what we see, hear, touch, smell, taste, but I will not just take somebody's word for what is. I have listened to what many people have said, but the only 100% belief that I have is in "God" and his/her devotion to me. Even visions that I myself have had might be something else.

If Lazaris is real, I am through empowering him by believing in him. If he's real and if that makes no difference to him—that's great. If he's real and if it happens to upset him, I don't care. Peny North has been in contact with "Lazaris" on a daily basis. Look where that got her. Not where I want to be going.

You want to hurt Katy and Ted by saying in your anger that one or both of them have thrown away their spirituality. Why? I don't really believe that you feel that you have the authority to make such a huge, uneducated proclamation. In fact, with the same "authority" that you were taking, I would like to tell you that you don't have any spirituality at all. You seem to be annoyed with anybody who you do not feel is at your "level of consciousness", and that is not spirituality, that is EGO. Negative I would say.

Even your name "Exploding Shark Bait" indicates that you feel your mission is to find hidden predators and then blow them up. And, honestly now, you thought that you would find those blood-thirsty mammals here?

I hope that whatever is troubling you works out and I wish you the best.

HUBBA HUBBA o great one! You are stuck in your own Amityville Horror. You create your own reality and I'm glad that yours is NOT mine!

Cheers,

The view that Lazaris exists is a more plausable view to me at this point than fraud. Hope you are still around to read this.

I have been playing with the notion that this is a class A hoax in order to formulate a workable theory of fraud here and it just isn't happening. I haven't been able to satisify myself with any possiblity along those lines, it just doesn't fly. If it did, I could accept it.

I wrote in the forum once " a stolen diamond is just as beautiful". So its acceptable, dissapointing but acceptable if Lazaris is a concoction, conscious or unconscious fraud.

My current evaluation is that Lazaris is a consciousness seperate from Jach. Or Lazaris was. or some variation.

I have known Lazaris in the neighborhood of 14 yrs, and despite my dismay, disgust and regret concerning the disintegration and decomposition of Concept Synergy and the
bright bulbs that form the loci of that seedy little enterprise known as the "forum" I do hold there is something to Lazaris.

If you apply the critical tools of evaluation that Lazaris used to recommend for discerning the validity of a teaching,
his material passes with flying colors.

If you apply the same critical tools to evaluate the behavior of Pursel/North and the rest of the Straining Hate Monkies in the forum "gaurd" you have to run for the door.

Look, if I had known that this multilvel marketing scam had happened[[ around the time that I got involved with Lazaris] was incontravertable fact, I would have considered that a dealbreaker. I cannot believe it took me this long to hear about it.

I am intrigued by your statement that Peny wasn't always the hateful virago she seems proud to be now. I would be interested in hearing what she used to be like, how she could have ever inspired trust in another without the mandate of those holding the strings of availablity to Lazaris demanding that every toxic utterance be deemed a learning experience.

The woman on the Peny and Lazaris tapes for instance bears, in my mind, little resemblance to the Many Caftaned Monster we see before us now.

True, on those tapes, she was clearly positioning herself as a maverick which I thought and still think is the vulnerablity or her ego. She was frank about her weight, her weaknesses. She was defensive but not the startling degree she is now. She seemed human, intelligent, not without wit and perspective.

So what happened? and what happened to those around her?

Last night I quit the forum, sending CS a short note with no explination asking them to cancel my membership and any further business transactions including an upcoming personal consultation with Lazaris.

The forum membership and or management that patrol this site surely know who I am.

I posted frequently in the forum and owing to my recent discovery of the tawdry business dealings that JachPenyMichael mucked about in at the sore expense of people that study with Lazaris, I had to face my disgust at the denial I had indulged in over the years and face the fact the forum had disintegrated into a revolving Dante ring cycle. Showing its ugly belly in numerous variations.

I had to face the fact that it isn't appropriate for a multimillion dollar organization to use unpaid workers to sell their products at the back table during seminars. If Nike did that how would I react???

I had to face the fact that the price gauging is an assault and has to be based on a contempt for the consumer.

The trend in the forum ...[and if you are reading along..you know who you two are ] is to write posts discouraging people from buying crystals from other less expensive sources like ebay etc. They imply that if a crystal is of value it will find its way to Lazaris. Other crystals might be dangerous.

Beasts.

Wonder how much of a cut they get? even a percentage of single digits must be a healthy chunk.

So glad I never bought a damn thing from their backtable over that cost more than 20.00

I wouldnt be surprised if they bought crystals off ebay and marked them up..way up..so far up North you wouldn't recognize them..

Those hideous overpriced clothes at the back table, reducing a spiritual event to a sideshow. If you don't know its a circus they will sell you the clothes while you are there to remind you.

but MULTILVEL MARKETING! and advertising it at the seminars.. beyond, beyond the pale.

I understand the concept of non-intereferrence but I have to question Lazaris association with this noxious tribe?

How could Lazaris stand by and watch them swindle people? Abuse people in the forum? Contradict what Lazaris says because it doesn't fit in with their right of Reagan politics?

I would love to hear opinions on that.

My current theory is they enjoy healthy relationships with republicans and are very comfortable in Florida.

Cheers,

Jeremiah

I believe strongly that the ENERGY of a Lazaris is real, but that doesn't mean "the" Lazaris of Jach and Peny. IF Lazaris is real, he would welcome and embrace our skepticism and understand all the whys and wherefores of why we are here; what brought us to this place of "freedom" to question and heal from the abuse that was done in the forum of his name.(sounds like an organized religion, doesn't it?) I also believe that he wouldn't abandon Peny IF he's real but that we would have seen a major change in that area by now.

You mentioned the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus, 8-), I used to think that Lazaris was like the Wizard of Oz and I was travelling the yellow-brick road each time I went to a workshop!lol

ESB seems to enjoy the woo-woo of metaphysics and ignores the fact that we are empowered to create positive realities instead of negative ones.

Loved your post and send love to you with thanks for responding to ESB.

Love and light,

Well, is this the exploding bait you've been carrying around?

You accuse us of trying to erode your confidence, when actually I have thought from the beginning that might be what you are trying to do with us here, with your talk of scary energies and alleged hauntings.
Boo! Boo! away I'm not scared ESB, if that is what you're going for.

No one here ever told you how or what to believe, and even if they did, so what? We can all think for ourselves, and that is the fundamental premise of this site. If we have a mission, me and Ted, that is it, to encourage and allow for free thought.

One thing I know about belief, is that it can't be shattered or eroded by some posts on a message board by faceless strangers. It can be eroded by people who have set themselves up in a deliberate, conscious, and elaborate plan, people who have convinced others that they have a special relationship to one who is all wise.

We are not doing that here. We're here trying to find some peace, healing, and understanding. Trying to push beliefs on each other isn't going to further that cause.
Making spiritual judgements of each other isn't going to get us there either.

If I am "in negative-ego" that is my business ESB. I will be the judge of my own soul and spirituality, thank you very much for your concern though.

What difference could it possibly make to you whether or not your belief in Lazaris "flys" here unless you came here to convince us of something? We are all open to hearing your views on that. What I and evidently others are not comfortable with is garbled communication, sarcasm, and offensive imageries, like your "wiping Malene's ass" commentary.

You are and have always been more than welcomed, actually you have been encouraged to share your thoughts and beliefs about Lazaris or anything else for that matter.

No ESB, we aren't playing "Forum" here, you are free to speak, and we are free to respond as we wish. If you can't handle that, I guess it's a good thing for you to take your "bait" and go.

You say "I leave now because many here have attacked the confidence I have and experience in a realities, entities, and individuals beyond the five lower senses. They certainly do make some of you very -- extremely uncomfortable"

How can strangers attack your confidence, I don't get that? What difference could it possibly make to you whether or not we believe as you do? And so what if you sense that we are uncomfortable with your belief in scary entities? Are you suggesting that we can't evaluate or respond to our own feelings? Do you think we need someone to do that for us?

Having said all that, I'm sorry if you are leaving ESB. I have interest in what you have to say, I just have a problem with the way you say some things, but you are free to speak your mind here anyway. I can handle discomfort, and have no problem stating what my personal boundaries are for interacting with others. You can choose to observe those, or not, and we can choose how to handle that, each of us as individuals. We are not a group of "one mind" here, nor do I ever hope that we will be. If I saw that starting to happen, or sensed that anyone was succeeding at manipulating this group to have identical beliefs, that would be the day I would seriously consider taking down this site. I would at that time have absolutely no interest.

So, stick around, or leave ESB, it's entirely up to you. For me, this site is an experiment in unmanipulated communication. Maybe we can all learn from each other about how to do that. That doesn't mean that we can't speak up and state our objections or disagreements with each other. It just means that we can't attempt to impose them on each other.

All the best,

Katie

Jeremiah said: I have been playing with the notion that this is a class A hoax in order to formulate a workable theory of fraud here and it just isn't happening. I haven't been able to satisify myself with any possiblity along those lines, it just doesn't fly. If it did, I could accept it.

I am curious, why you feel that way? What is it that makes you convinced this is not a hoax? I am truely just curious what has made you come to the conclusion, as much as I have read with interest why others on this board has come to a different conclusion. I myself was never a part of the forum so I can only listen to you guy's story.

I hope this question is not over your boundaries, and if it is, I do apologize before hand :o).

Jeremiah said: I do hold there is something to Lazaris.

It sounds like you have many positive experiences with Lazaris. I have a lot of respect for that. I too had many fantastic experiences with the people and entities of my old group. Among them a fantastic trip to Malaysia which still remains a fantastic highlight in my bag of experiences.

Jeremiah said: If you apply the critical tools of evaluation that Lazaris used to recommend for discerning the validity of a teaching,
his material passes with flying colors.

Hmm.. well, personally I have a bit of a problem with applying the critical tools that Lazaris teaches to his own teachings. I think there are other critical tools to take into account here as well. But again, that is just a personal opinion. I am certainly willing to be wrong :o).

Jeremiah said: I had to face the fact that it isn't appropriate for a multimillion dollar organization to use unpaid workers to sell their products at the back table during seminars. If Nike did that how would I react???

It takes a lot of strength to honestly admit that you were conned for so long, and that what you have invested so much of yourself in, is just not right. I hope you give yourself that credit.

Jeremiah said: I understand the concept of non-intereferrence but I have to question Lazaris association with this noxious tribe?

As I have said again and again. Questioning is so healthy. Take your time. Continue to question. Make sure not to let go of what you felt was right and good from the Lazaris teachings, no matter what you think that is, I am sure it is there for you, and it is a very important part of you.

Jeremiah said: How could Lazaris stand by and watch them swindle people? Abuse people in the forum?

This comes down to your evaluation of Lazaris. This is in effect between you and Lazaris or God, or whatever you call the deity directly. Some people on this board has offered the explanation that it is because Lazaris does not exist. Since you have indicated that explanation doesnt work for you, you need to find your own answers. It is very painful to think that something that could potentially be so good for us, has become so abusive. The abuse hurts like shit.

Congratulations on leaving an abusive situation.

Kind regards
Malene

You say: "I wrote in the forum once " a stolen diamond is just as beautiful". So its acceptable, dissapointing but acceptable if Lazaris is a concoction, conscious or unconscious fraud."

That's an interesting thought. I'm not sure that I agree, but it certainly warrants consideration.

I think all of us agree that there is something very real in the energy we felt, and the experiences we had via the Lazaris materials.

I had a realization a few years ago that the vehicle for wisdom doesn't have to be, and isn't often equal to the message it carries.

Two experiences demonstrated that for me, one was a powerful healing energy I experienced from a guy who was a total loser in every other aspect of his life. He was a compulsive liar, user, and a thief, a truly seedy character. He stole from me and Ted after we gave him a place to live for several months. But, boy could that guy cook, and wow was he clicked in as a healer! I believe that both of those modalities can be a manifestation of "channeled" energies. Whatever came through him had little or nothing to do with his character.

Also, I worked for two different herbalists, writers and forumulators about herbal and alternative therapies. There was a stunning wisdom and ability in both of them to provide effective formulations and information about illness and disease. Both of them were questionable characters who had chaotic lives, and were flat out abusive, dishonest, manipulative, and rotten to the people closest to them. I still use and recommend both of their products, and information.

So, go figure, huh? All three of these people provide a valuable service and are making a significant contribution to others, inspite of the fact that they are far from admirable people in other aspects of their lives.

As Groovin'Magi has said, in her experience, the energy of "Lazaris" is real. I agree.

Also, the difference between Jach claiming to channel Lazaris and the healers work and products is that Jach is claiming that he is the only source of that energy, that we need him to access Lazaris if we want to get all the information. I know that Lazaris has said that we don't need the tapes, seminars, books, etc. but, come on, why do people keep paying for them, and why are some so damned flat out terrified of offending Jach? Why do the Gangsters work so hard to make sure everyone is very clear how important it is to protect and honor not only Jach, but Peny also?

In the case of the herbalists and healer, I can't very well adjust my own spine or give my self an acupuncture treatment and I have no inclination to study and formulate my own remedies when I'm just as happy to pay them for doing it for me. But, they aren't telling us that we can't or making up some stories about where their information and abilities have come from.

Jach, on the other hand, and Lazaris as well are not in any way encouraging us to "go it alone". There is a serious and insidious co-dependency being set up there, and I don't want any part of it.

So, hell yeah, I'm still reaching out, and still open to all that incredible, astounding love, and somehow the wisdom and understanding still find their way through. That happens without the techniques, and without all that fluffy information about Atlantis, Lemuria, Orion, and Arthurian Legend. I believe that Jach made all that up, and that is not coming from that wonderful love and energy I used to call "Lazaris". I believe that Jach makes up the techniques too.

It isn't the diamond that's been stolen, it's our faith in our own ability to mine our own. I guess that's my flow of consciousness response to your statement.

I think it's so damned good to have this conversation, and to share our thoughts and perspectives about Lazaris, that's for sure.
Each of us will in our own way come to our own place of comfort and belief eventually, that I am confident about. Sharing, even debating each other is to me, a really healthy way to allow for that to happen.

For me, it isn't how or what a person believes, it is the process they use to get there that is significant. If beliefs come as a result of mind control, manipulation, hypnotic suggestion, etc. then what are they worth ultimately? If they come from our own faith in ourselves and through our cultivated ability to observe and evaluate, then and only then to they the force that true beliefs carry along with them.

So, maybe it's possible for two people to believe exactly the same thing, but one who has been brainwashed into those beliefs might not have the ability to actually benefit much from those beliefs, yet the one who has come by them through their own efforts, and out of their own self-trust can actually access the power behind those beliefs. Do you know what I mean?

I have always been uncomfortable with tendencies within myself or others to try to "convince" people to think or believe in the same things. To me that compulsion to convince others is indicative of a lack of comfort, the need to have the support of others for the beliefs to be "real".

Maybe that is because no one can actually convince another of anything ultimately, especially not through force or manipulation.

Maybe only those beliefs we come to on our own are valuable and real.

I don't know, I'm just blabbering along here.
What do you think?

Lots of love, and a big warm smile of welcome,

Katie

You said, "I understand the concept of non-intereferrence but I have to question Lazaris association with this noxious tribe?

How could Lazaris stand by and watch them swindle people? Abuse people in the forum? Contradict what Lazaris says because it doesn't fit in with their right of Reagan politics?"

Welcome, Jeremiah, and what you said above is EXACTLY what brought me to strongly doubt and question the realness of Lazaris. Like I said to Karolina, I don't believe that Lazaris would abandon Peny, but there would have been major changes by now such as the ending of abuse and outright lies and character assassinations and judgements. They need to look in their own mirrors before they publicly judge and negatively influence others. There's not a one of us who is perfect! And they are CLEAR contradictions of what Lazaris has said.

Also want to mention that someone once told me that they "became very wealthy" because of Lazaris, finding themselves owning two homes instead of paying rent and owning nothing! This was years ago and I now know that it was during the time of Tradevest. He must have been one of the "chosen" ones!
I, of course, felt even more like a failure after years of processing and programming and still not a home owner.

It doesn't matter really because it's all where we put our attention and energy that gets us to where we're at, what our priorities are, as well as where our past choices have taken us. It's not important to me that I own a house so of course I don't! So what!! 8-)

You say you recently let C:S know that you don't want anything to do with them and I know that must have been a very difficult place to come to after 14 years. You haven't lost a thing, IMO, and though they at C:S wouldn't tell you this, your relationship with God/Goddess/All That Is is positively dynamic!!! 8-)

Love, light, and welcome again,

GroovinMagi

[[I am curious, why you feel that way? What is it that makes you convinced this is not a hoax? I am truely just curious what has made you come to the conclusion, as much as I have read with interest why others on this board has come to a different conclusion. I myself was never a part of the forum so I can only listen to you guy's story.]]

Basically my honest opinion is that Lazaris demonstrates a depth of thinking, humor and a breadth of knowledge that would be considered significant by most standards.

It is my obervation that Jach does not personally, at least consciously possess these qualities. My opinion of Jach is that he is intellegint, but not strikingly so. His thought patterns and humor do not appear to be at the level Lazaris speaks on.

Of course, this could be a part of the sham..he "dumbs down" to play up the contrast.

I also think that if you were going to perpetrate a hoax, there are easier ways to do it. You don't have to educate yourself to the extent that Jach MUST have to create an entity with the depth of knowledge and insight that Lazaris posesses.

The only thing, and I mean the only thing that ever rubbed me the wrong way about what Lazaris taught is that they came to speak to Peny. That struck me as weird, but I didn't care because the information was so good.

I have all the Lazaris tapes to date and have really studied them, so I know what is on them. I have attended relatively few workshops and only recently have I heard tale of disturbing things coming from Lazaris him/themselves.

As to using the tools that Lazaris gave for evaluation, I can see why that raised a question, I should have been clearer.

Its basically common sense. Lazaris used to emphasize [ and I say USED to emphasize becaues I havent heard it on any of the recent tapes ] that "the steps of getting somewhere are the qualities of being there".

So if something makes you feel like shit, like a lowlife but promises salvation, it cant be good because if its bad in the beginning it doesn't get better. Those who say it will get better are laying a con.

That is what I meant by that statement.

Thanks for writing, gotta run now..more later..

Jeremiah said: Basically my honest opinion is that Lazaris demonstrates a depth of thinking, humor and a breadth of knowledge that would be considered significant by most standards.

Cool, really interesting. Lazaris or no Lazaris, I would find it very important to hold on to those good things you felt was there. I know it was very important for me to do that after leaving my own cult, it is still important for me to do that. I hear how important it sounds to you too.

Jeremiah said: The only thing, and I mean the only thing that ever rubbed me the wrong way about what Lazaris taught is that they came to speak to Peny. That struck me as weird, but I didn't care because the information was so good.

Well, it is important to consider all such information in the final judgement. It is important not to sweep the things that causes a discord with the teachings under the rug.

That will give you a breath of understanding, and no matter what your final conclusion is, you will know that it is yours and not something programmed into you.

Jeremiah said: I have all the Lazaris tapes to date and have really studied them, so I know what is on them. I have attended relatively few workshops and only recently have I heard tale of disturbing things coming from Lazaris him/themselves.

Again, really important to have all the information... :o)...

Jeremiah said: So if something makes you feel like shit, like a lowlife but promises salvation, it cant be good because if its bad in the beginning it doesn't get better. Those who say it will get better are laying a con.

Thanks a ton for the clarification. This does make a lot of sense. Holding to this teaching itself, and holding CS, Jach and Peny to that teaching might be very beneficial....

I know that it was actually a teaching of my old abusive teacher herself that finally made me break away. Ahh the irony of such teachings.

Jeremiah said: That is what I meant by that statement.

Thanks for your clarification back. It is really interesting for me to learn about the Lazaris forum, and to hear all the points of view.

Back to finish replying to your post.

you wrote:

[[It takes a lot of strength to honestly admit that you were conned for so long, and that what you have invested so much of yourself in, is just not right. I hope you give yourself that credit.]]

I should make it clear I am far from a basket case over this..[g] In fact, I feel quite centered about the whole thing.. distressed and angry over some things depressed over others..but there is something so refreshing about taking off the shakles it serves to minimizes the ill effects.

I appreciate your support but it occurs to me reading your response that you might have gathered the impression I am in self doubt or self recrimination, which is not my experience.

This is more an issue of conscience, my own.
I saw things that were wrong, participated to some extent in the nastiness of the forum but was never the target of it.

Of course, you could argue correctly that everyone who shut their mouth or look the other way in this abusive environment and as a result, suffered damage. That would be correct but there are levels. What Ted and Katie experienced was far nastier. I was constantly praised, reinforced and thanked for participating. I was a sucker on that level.

I walked away because my conscience couldnt deny the depravity, I wasn't bullied out.

I must admit it does feel good to walk away without being asked to. It feels good to refuse the oh- so- coveted honor of a personal consultation with Lazaris. To just say no thank you, I decline because I find you and your business practices repugnant.

This sounds very self congratulatory and I guess it is.. It just made me feel good to say "no, I reject YOU after all you have done to bully and reject others that came to you in sincerity and good faith, I say goodbye to you."

Interesting I emailed them last night to cancel everything and no response. I know they got the email, but no response. They know wny I left, though I didnt explain, I guess the just know.

I really am yapping away here.. more later..gotta run for now..

Jeremiah

Hey thanks for writing..

[[Also want to mention that someone once told me that they "became very wealthy" because of Lazaris, finding themselves owning two homes instead of paying rent and owning nothing! This was years ago and I now know that it was during the time of Tradevest. He must have been one of the "chosen" ones!]]

How repulsive is that?? Christ, these people are a travesty. If you think about it, why does one need to rely on scams like multilevel marketing [which is always a scam]
to create "abundance"??

Loads and loads of people are rich with houses galore that never have heard of Lazaris. The point is that those people, IMO, visualize being a certain way, have no problem with it and boom..it happens.. I do believe in the tenents of creating reality. I think though, that the mechanisms are pretty straightforward, visualization, clarification of intent and thats pretty much it.

People do it all the time with and without without Lazaris.

I, of course, felt even more like a failure after years of processing and programming and still not a home owner.

you wrote to me:
[[I, of course, felt even more like a failure after years of processing and programming and still not a home owner]]

you know I have been thinking about this and the complexity of the techniques...mists of manifestation, sphere of light.. all this progression of steps and intricacies..

Assuming, as I believe, the process of reality creation is a pretty straightforward one, the question for the nefarious teacher would be "how do I keep people hooked when ther is such a finite amount of things to teach about succeess?"

The answer could be to make the techniques so baroque, so difficult that ANYONE would feel like a failure trying to do them and that failure would outpicture in the reality as lack of success and BOOM they are back in a seminar for another technique that will finally do the trick.

Ugly huh? but worth considering.

One of the things that always freaked me at the seminars I went to was the desperation of those around me for the bit of information that was going to unlock the key to the kingdom for them....very creepy..

More Later..busy today but cant resist writing in bits..

Cheers,

I think that Exploding Shark Bait is acting as "bait", intentionally or not, on this message board. Quite a fulminating distraction.

Lorca

I think "catalyst" seems to be a more appropriate word here than "distraction." But "fulminating" absolutely hits the spot, though I don't think that this is the detonation that was intended.

Welcome. Your posts are a helpful additon to the message board and I'm really glad to hear that you left the Forum.

The problem with the beauty of a "stolen diamond" is that every time you look at it to enjoy it's beauty, there is a bad feeling associated with it because the source lacks integrity. I don't think it's neccesary to compromise an area as significant as spirituality. Even if the information is good, there is a better way that doesn't have an ugly side. I think we owe that to ourselves.

I also was involved with Concept:Synergy for 14 years. In fact, I attended what I think was the first Tradevest meeting, it took place in Marin . That was the initial thing that bothered me. In an earlier post, I explained a wretched, shattering experience on the forum. Fortunately my time there was brief, but I was unable to resolve my feelings about the viscious, attacking, and unforgiving behavior there (over four years ago) until I found this site earlier this month. I never could reconcile Peny and Jach's and the other forum members nasty, controlling posts with the Lazaris material or with my positive experiences. It never occurred to me that Lazaris was a hoax because I continued to focus on what I liked, while diminishing what I didn't like.

I too thought the support of right wing politics was way off base. l looked in on the forum several months after my incident. Peny was discussing using sacred geometry to negatively affect Clinton. Why not program for a positive future for the country instead negatively focusing on one person as "the enemy"? And saying that the "New Age" wouldn't happen if a Democrat won the next presidential election. Liberals like myself were considered "adolescent" or worse. There was no dialogue, only reinforcemet of conservative opinion.

Now I'm feeling that since my intent was, and is, to grow spiritually, I used what I had made available to myself and did grow. I would have done the same if I had become a Christian or followed some other route. I let the love and growth in through the perspective and terminology of the teachings to which I was exposing myself. But I have realized that I don't need anyone else's teachings, clever hoax or not, to grow. In fact, I'm much better off without it.

Concerning the techniques, I read on an anti-cult site that taking a truth, then expanding on it to create more complexity is part of the drill.

So Jeremiah, I want to be clear that I'm just expressing my opinion and telling my experience because I know you have to make up your own mind where Lazaris is concerned.

Lorca (Jade)

Lorca Said: Concerning the techniques, I read on an anti-cult site that taking a truth,then expanding on it to create more complexity is part of the drill.

Sorry to say, this is so most definitely my experience. It is also one of the most heartwrenching parts of what cults do in my opinion.

For me after having left trying to pick through what was or wasnt good, and holding on to the good even in the face of the extreme abuse that I went through. Again, I lived in a cult commune for years, and I can hardly begin to express the things that went on within that commune. When some very real truths, and true spirituality gets twisted into, and with, years of abuse it becomes very hard to untangle afterwards.

The way I experienced it, is there was the truths, and then slowly, ever so slowly step by step, those truths became twisted, changed, or just plain old broken, but because of the way it happened, I never actually admitted to myself, or noticed how the original truths had been killed off, and I had become just an empty shell of a human.They truely broke me, step by step, and I believe they had it as a goal to break me.

Very, very painful.....

So Yes, there are thruths in even the worst of cults. There has to be, to lure people in. The horror starts when those truths are used against people to keep them in bondage, to abuse and hurt, and ultimately be changed into something almost unrecognizable.

The challenge imho as I have expressed before, is to manage to take those fantastic truths which lured us to the group, and which just might be an expression of the best part of who we are, and integrate it into a life where the abuse no longer has any place.

You wrote: [[IMO there is huge, huge hypocricy among some on this site. Some here say they "allow" the view that Lazaris and other non-physical phenomena exist. After my experience here, I can say with absolute certainty: that is not so. And, IMO that is right where your negative ego wants you.]]

First of all, it's not our place to allow or disallow viewpoints. At most, we can delete posts with which we disagree. We won't do that. Even if we did, it wouldn't stop people from believing what they want.

Many of us have talked on this site about non-physical phenomena in the context that we believe in it. So where you got the idea that we don't "allow" that belief is beyond me.

Since the state of our egos and our spirituality is our own concern and not yours, I won't respond to your Forum-like charges. I am awed though at the degree of arrogance that you exhibit in making those judgments.

You wrote: [[I leave now because many here have attacked the confidence I have and experience in a realities, entities, and individuals beyond the five lower senses. They certainly do make some of you very -- extremely uncomfortable.]]

I think this may be wishful thinking on your part. Your attempts at giving us the heebee-geebees makes me about as uncomfortable as the threats that accompany chain-letters.

If Lazaris is from the lower-realms, as you suggest, and I find rather implausible, then they are still not "real" in the sense that they are not who they claim to be. Were you expecting us to be impressed by your theory?
I found it interesting, I thought about it, and I disagree with it. I didn't realize I was chucking my spirituality by doing so.

Ah yes, the Wizard of Oz. He was smoke and mirrors. He did wind up having some wisdom. But he was no Wizard. As the song by America said, "Oz never did give nothing to the Tinman that he didn't already have".

you wrote:

[[So, maybe it's possible for two people to believe exactly the same thing, but one who has been brainwashed into those beliefs might not have the ability to actually benefit much from those beliefs, yet the one who has come by them through their own efforts, and out of their own self-trust can actually access the power behind those beliefs. Do you know what I mean?]]

Yeah, I see what you mean and it is an excellent point. Lazaris himself always pointed out that the most damaging teachings were those that contained some of the truth but not all of the truth. "Half truths" were poison because they could lure you in enough and yet keep you spinning your wheels with the remainder.

I am thinking alot about the contrast between the older tapes and the more recent ones.

Lazaris talked often, early on, about how success is a defaulted position. The universe is wanting us to be successful and if we just take away what is blocking that success it would happen.

That makes sense to me and it is also my experience. The question though, that it raises is : if success is a defaulted position, do we need super duper complex manifestation techniques that we can only learn from Lazaris?

What could the complex " mist of manifestation" technique accomplish that simply getting out your own way couldn't much quicker and with much less struggle???

Strange, why not just visualize a result and let it happen if the universe is set up to be hoping and begging for our success. I believe that the universe is set up that way, btw, I just think it is a contradiction of ACTION on the part of the Lazaris material to state that and then IMPLY by teaching three thousand workshops on the topic of success that more effort is needed.

I have always been an admirer of the Seth material for many reasons, one of which is the fact that Seth doesn't offer suggestions contrary to the basic premises of his material. It may be an interesting parenthetical here for those readers of Seth to note that Lazaris has always spoken highly of Seth and the work Jane Roberts did.
Peny North is also on the record, admiring Seth, that is until recently she dismissed him as unecessary or something to that effect.

Also interesting to note how much Lazaris in the earlier material used to make "suggestions" there was an effort on the part of Lazaris to emphasize that they were not a leader or guru and had no desire to be so, in fact had long moved beyond those levels of development.

Lazaris has perhaps, but NorthPurselNorth seem to vacation there regularly. How can you year after year KNOW that people are maxing out their credit and struggling to make these seminars. How can you BILK them even more by implying that crystals from less expensive sources might me negative and that the really great crystals are finding their way only to Lazaris??????????

WOULD LAZARIS HIMSELF EVER SAY SUCH A THING??

What it creates, of course, is an eager consumer base that wants the power of crystal work at their disposal but has been frightened away from using their own intuition and resources to evaluate a crystals metaphysical viability on their own.

Nice, real nice and empowering.. Awakening the Fear...

Which illustrates the contempt which I think that the overpriced crystals show for the consumer. Its almost "take that Suckah!" you paid hundreds of dollars to be in the room for the seminar and you will pay even more than that for a crystal that you could get from more honest sources at a fraction of the cost.

Cheers,

Sorry. "Distraction" was the right word for what you meant, and I agree. I thought that you were refering to the explosion of activity that has happened at this site today. Its busier than ever here today, isn't it?

Welcome!

You wrote: [[I have been playing with the notion that this is a class A hoax in order to formulate a workable theory of fraud here and it just isn't happening. I haven't been able to satisify myself with any possiblity along those lines, it just doesn't fly. If it did, I could accept it.]]

Well, I won't try to convince you otherwise[g]. I don't have anything to add to what I've already written on the topic. If and when I ever have proof - one way or the other - you'll read it here[g].

I agree with Lorca that the diamond would indeed be tainted. It may retain it's physical beauty, but the subtler aspects would take a hit, IMO. That's why I'm in the process of cleansing all the crystals I received from the Lazaris seminars.

You wrote: [[The woman on the Peny and Lazaris tapes for instance bears, in my mind, little resemblance to the Many Caftaned Monster we see before us now.]]

Peny's essay at the beginning of Lazaris Interviews Book II indicates a person who is quite full of herself. While she is not nasty or insulting in this writing, she tells how difficult it would be for people to understand the depths of her love with Jach and Micheall and her esoteric philosophy. And how "the confusion is long past now, and only rarely does a piece of it drift to shore...". Misunderstood by the ignorant masses who can't conceive of someone being so wise, loving and happy. That's our Peny. The book was published in 1988, and Peny says in the book that she had written these words "several years ago".

On an Evening with Lazaris and Peny tape from the mid-1980s, Peny says that the "Map-Makers" are setting the precedent of "going Home". As if noone has ever "gone home" before Lazaris came along. Peny admits to reading works by Paramahansa Yogananda, so she should know that at least one person has set that precedent before. In fact, many have.

She may or may not have been smart enough to not act up then as she does now, but it seems to me that the hubris has existed for quite some time.

I had heard that story of some of the Gang writing about bad crystals on eBay. I don't know if Peny resold eBay crystals, but I do know that she bid on quite a few of them.

When Forum Storm hit, I was thinking that there had been a massive misunderstanding - that we're all good and sincere people, but for some reason, we're not communicating properly. But events such as this make me realize that C:S is diabolical and corrupt to the core. This is no temporary excursion into "negative ego" - this is long-term, purposeful deceit, IMO.

You asked, [[How could Lazaris stand by and watch them...Contradict what Lazaris says because it doesn't fit in with their right of Reagan politics?]]

I remember one such incident - I wrote about it here - where someone posted in the Forum that Lazaris has something to the extent that it would behoove us to accept the fact that people in other countries don't have the same values as we Americans have and we have no right to try to force our values on them. This, I think, was on the 1999 tape. The sycophants said that what Lazaris meant was that we need to protect ourselves against these countries because they don't believe in freedom and apple-pie, etc. When I heard the tape, I thought it was as clear as a bell what they were saying. Peny wrote in the next day saying that she consulted with Lazaris and the sycophants had it right! I had a real hard time with that, but I swept it under the rug with the rest of the stuff.

Interesting about success being a defaulted position. It would seem that, by doing complex techniques, we are convincing our sub-conscious that it is not a default position, but that we need to force our will onto our reality. In fact, now that I think of it, that may have happened to me and it may very well be done purposefully. Time to re-program (or de-program)[g].

Nice to talk to you, you wrote:

[[The problem with the beauty of a "stolen diamond" is that every time you look at it
to enjoy it's beauty, there is a bad feeling associated with it because the source lacks integrity. I don't think it's neccesary to compromise an area as significant as spirituality. Even if the information is good, there is a better way that doesn't have an ugly side. I think we owe that to ourselves. ]]

I understand and agree with your point. When I made that statement I was addressing the validity of some of the concepts central to the Lazaris material. They are not "owned" by Lazaris and certainly, the idea that we create our own reality via beliefs and desires has been around for ages.

The point I am hoping to get across is basically just because Lazaris said it doesn't mean its a lie [g] If it is a fraud, they stole good stuff.

Some of the stuff I have been hearing about, Orion menaces etc. isn't so good.. [[yikes..understatement]]it reminds me of the worst airy fairy crap. It also completely contradicts Lazaris emphatic statements to the effect that their is no "dark brotherhood" out there or any conspiracy against humanity from space people or any such shit..again on the early material.

So I like your point and agree with it, it does become tainted if you source it with a liar.. true..

I am playing with the idea that Lazaris was real and that Jach started bullshitting somewhere in the late 80s... or early 90s.. another theory I have is that Lazaris may have been real.. RECORDED a whole bunch of material, split and Jach aped it.. dont know..

You wrote:

[[also was involved with Concept:Synergy for 14 years. In fact, I attended what I think was the first Tradevest meeting, it took place in Marin . That was the initial thing that bothered me]]

I am so curious about this. I don't want to pressure you in anyway to discuss something that might be too painful or private but can you share any details about how it was presented and how they handled it when it fell apart?

I am just mystified as to how this couldn't have brought them down sooner. Didn't anyone write about it in the local media?

Somebody told me once that Michaell North called him with a business proposition and while weird,it didn't strike me that it could be multilvel marketing.

Concerns abound here, isn't Lazaris concerned with his "good name"?????

I got a card circa late 80s when I just started listening to Lazaris that Peny and Michael changed their last names to North for ESOTERIC reasons!!! ROFLOL>>>>>>..

You wrote:
[[too thought the support of right wing politics was way off base. l looked in on the forum several months after my incident. Peny was discussing using sacred geometry to negatively affect Clinton. Why not program for a positive future for the country instead negatively focusing on one person as "the enemy"? And saying that the "New Age" wouldn't happen if a Democrat won the next presidential election. Liberals like myself were considered "adolescent" or worse. There was no dialogue, only reinforcemet of conservative opinion.]]

Wow, I must have numbed out, zoned out on Ma Norths'treatise on the bringing down of a president with sacred geometry. There were weeks, around the election especially, that I scrolled past all the neopolitical crap and didn't even read it.

I LOATHEtheir politics, not so much for what they believe, but for HOW they believe it.

I really think there is something shadey about this political conversion. Maybe they get protection from Republicans in florida.

Ma North sure knows how to awaken the love.

I did catch a post of hers where she was decrying women everywhere as fools and pansies of the Democratic leadership. She exclaimed "I am ashamed to be a woman" in lite of their antics and even shrieked some nonsense about how giving women the vote might not have been such a good idea. I admit [or hope?] that she was kidding to make a point [a stupid point, but a point nonethelesss] but I have doubts.

Anyway the defensiveness around their politics leads me to believe they HIDE something in it.

Cheers,

You wrote:

[[Peny's essay at the beginning of Lazaris Interviews Book II indicates a person who is quite full of herself. While she is not nasty or insulting in this writing, she tells how difficult it would be for people to understand the depths of her love with Jach and Micheall and her esoteric philosophy. And how "the confusion is long past now, and only rarely does a piece of it drift to shore...". ]]

Ahh..yes..good point.. that was a rather inflated aboveitall rendition of the authoress wasn't it?? LOL

I always thought it was interesting that Lazaris would talk frequently about Jach's struggles with self pity and martyrhood or whatever...but never Peny..Of course, the reasonable assumption is that this pulsing orb of unending love, Peny, who attracted a consciousness from levels so remote we cannot even concieve of them, was either beyond problems or didnt want them discussed.

[[Misunderstood by the ignorant masses who can't conceive of someone being so wise, loving and happy. That's our Peny.]]

There goes my lunch.

Cheers,

You wrote: [[I also think that if you were going to perpetrate a hoax, there are easier ways to do it. You don't have to educate yourself to the extent that Jach MUST have to create an entity with the depth of knowledge and insight that Lazaris posesses.]]

I think there are many con-artists who do take the easy way and don't do their homework. I would imagine that they attract less people and retain even fewer. I certainly wouldn't have hung around for 12 years if it was just a bunch of fluff.

I also think it's possible that Jach wants to do a good job. This may sound strange, but it could be that he justifies the scam by telling himself that he's providing a good service, so the lie about who Lazaris is has less detrimental impact. I know that people with whom I've spoken about this have said that Lazaris' authenticity didn't matter as much as the fact that there is so much Truth in the material.

You wrote: [[I walked away because my conscience couldnt deny the depravity, I wasn't bullied out.]]

Yes, and you make a very powerful statement by doing so. It's easy for people to Katie and me as "crying sour grapes", or whatever the expression is, but you had most-favored status. Of course Katie and I wouldn't have been bullied out but for the fact that we took a stand and refused to be bullied out of it.

You wrote: [[Of course, this could be a part of the sham..he "dumbs down" to play up the contrast.]]

Yes, I think he's clever enough to do that. But lately he hasn't even been doing that. He puts himself above others by having a section of the Forum called, Some Answers from Jach. Why "some answers from Jach" if he's just a radio? He also has contributed articles to New Age publications as himself, without even pretending to channel Lazaris. If Jach is really totally in trance during the seminars, then he is the one "friend of Lazaris" that has never attended a workshop. Yet he sets himself up as the expert on the material. Not so humble!

Thanks for your wonderful response to ESB's explosion.

You wrote:

[[Yes, and you make a very powerful statement by doing so. It's easy for people to Katie and me as "crying sour grapes", or whatever the expression is, but you had most-favored status. Of course Katie and I wouldn't have been bullied out but for the fact that we took a stand and refused to be bullied out of it. ]]

Yes, you are right you and Katie wouldn't have been bullied out if you had refused to take a stand. If I had taken a stand over that and a number of other bloodbaths I would have been drummed out as well.

I think it is important if they bother to tell lies about me and say or imply that I was kicked out or did something to them, that I can verify they didn't by their own correspondence saying that they cancelled my standing orders, forum membership and private consultation by my own request.

Cheers,

You wrote:

[[I also think it's possible that Jach wants to do a good job. This may sound strange, but it could be that he justifies the scam by telling himself that he's providing a good service, so the lie about who Lazaris is has less detrimental impact. I know that people with whom I've spoken about this have said that Lazaris' authenticity didn't matter as much as the fact that there is so much Truth in the material]]

Well, this reminds me alot of JZ Knight, a thouroughbred meglomaniac who has been trotting around claiming to channel a 35,000 year old Atlantinean Warrior named Ramtha for some time now.

She follows the CS pattern in many interesting respects, anyone familiar with her soulshattering roadshow performances will know what I mean.

She started out with messages of hope and love and the whole nine yards about how great we all are and gradually the message got darker and darker until predicitions of "earth changes" and disease started to creep in and then take over the platform.

She also had her own Tradevest by employing "Ramthas" help to sell her wealthy clients expensive horses from her Arabian horse ranch..telling them that Ramtha picked the "steed" for them.blah blah blah...so very sad.

She got busted by ABC news around my initial contacts with Lazaris. But she is still going strong up in Washington state with a much smaller devoted audience.

At one point she was the flavor of the week she got lots of press and made lots of cold hard cash.

I really hope that those who are experiencing low grade daily anxiety, are finding themselves getting worse and not better find a way to stop blaming themselves with self punishing behavior like going to seminars they cant afford. or out of "self-love" buying more crystals they cannot afford and come home feeling more alienated from the spirituality they so avidly seek.

So many of the people that work with the Lazaris material are great people, sincere, intelligent and good hearted. I know that those who are heavily, addictively involved would be relieved to know they aren't alone.

Cheers,

Lorca said: Hi Malene,Sounds like that commune had a really devastating impact.

Yes it did. I have gotten on with my life, but are still very much in a position of healing. I will not lie about that.

I was a part of the group for around 5 years, and lived with them for around 3+ years. All during my time with the group there would be abusive, group humiliation sessions, as well as some physical abuse, and other stuff going on.

I have come to learn that my experience in a cult is in no way unique. In fact many people have had much worse experiences with cults than I have.

However, it is my goal to somehow make use of what I went through to help others.

Lorca said: But, the most damaging experience was the attack on the Forum, the worst of that being that I felt I couldn't even ask "Lazaris " to be there.

This is where I can still to this day go absolutely berserk. Eventhough you did not live with them as I did with my group. They somehow managed to convince you that your closeness to Lazaris, or ultimately God, came from their acceptance of you.

I am glad you are making yourself free of that influence. And should the thought ever come back that God will not manifest in your life only on the merit of who you are, you know where that thought comes from, and hopefully you will be able to fight back.

Lorca said: This healing takes a while, but I sure can breath more freely already.

As I know I have said before, the Freedom that we all of a sudden has given ourselves might be the most significant gift of all in leaving.

It is important to recognize that cults are totalitarian and dictatorship based, and making ourselves Free from a cult is a huge personal liberation.

Lorca said: Thanks for the information on False Memory Syndrome.

You are very welcome, I am happy to provide any information that I migth have.

I should have been more specific about the use of sacred geometry to hex Clinton. That happened several years ago, a few months after my "barbeque" (as Katie likes to call the roasting rites) when I looked in on the forum a couple of times before my subsciption fee lapsed. As I recall, people were to place crystals on a grid (forgot the name). The first idea was to program for Clinton's downfall. Then it was changed to protect him because if he were somehow martyred then Gore would get in this year. And then the New Age would be lost even in the face of many manifesting mists, and snappy 33 second techniques. I don't know if people were actually doing this, just that it was discussed.

Unfortunately, along with original good information that attracted us, we have been fed a lot of B.S. For instance the abundance symbol that many of us stuck in our wallets and elsewhere or the above mentioned power grid. How about all the information about crystals. There is some barebones truth to it that people who were already working with crystals were aware of. Then we were told (in the videos) that the Great Work would come about through the combination of Map Makers, crystals, and GGATI. That "dew line" stuff. Then they started pushing crystals that were overloaded with specific high falutin' qualities, replete with Siriun, Lemurian and Atlantean heritage that makes rereading some of the crystal emails laughable. Can't you feel the Ancient One Grampa Teacher Merlin Crystal Mystical Other's counsels of grace, courage and mattering vibing you to take out a second mortgage on your house so you can hear it calling "Come Home" from your very own bedside table? I've seen plenty of crystal exploitation but this is a beaut. And it it takes half the joy out of working with a crystal because it's already packaged with a bunch of labels. I think there is B.S all through the Lazaris Material. So much embellishment disguised as "complexity."

I'm understanding the dynamic that occured within me to keep on trying to grow using the tapes. I accepted a particular reality-set (the whole Lazaris scenario) and managed to ignore or diminish what most of what didn't fit rather unconsciously. And when meditations or techniques didn't work well for me, then I felt it was my fault, not the information. Happily all that diving and breaching in the pools of abundance, value and freedom worked well enough to send me on a Lazaris search, and voila this site appeared. Just what I needed to help me resolve the forum hell I had experienced, and more. I feel like I just awakened from a trance or a dream. Hope all this helps you answer some questions you are bound to be asking yourself.

Lorca (Jade)

You wrote:

[[I only went to one Tradevest meeting - think it was 1986. I didn't buy into it but I could see that a lot of other people were signing up. I remember seeing some fliers for it after that at seminars. I didn't know why it failed until I read about it on this site. At the time it made no sense to me that people who were aware of manifesting abundance would be offered this smelly scheme, let alone invest in it. An employee told me that Lazaris was concerned about people having an income in their old age. ]]

I am quite sure "Lazaris" was concerned about followers having income in their old age. If the "friends of Lazaris" don't have income in their old age..guess who else doesn't? The gaping hydra-headed beast, NorthPurselNorth is far too grand to subsist on a pension!![BG}

What a nasty fiendish little swindle .huh. Sure am glad you didn't suffer any financial losses in this.

It does tend to support the theory that Lazaris is a total fraud or at the very least NOT what "they" claim to be.

IT IS MIND SNAPPING to provide countless seminars on success and abundance and then run a scam on the attendees based on your CONCERN FOR THE FUTURE???

What that tells me is that "Lazaris" had little confidence in the techniques he was teaching if he felt the most likely way for his clients to create financial security was a tried and true "consensus" scam!

When I say mindsnapping, I mean it. What does a person earnestly studying this material think when they hear "Lazaris" wants them to enter a financially risky snakeoil-type business proposition to create financial security?

The message is clear we "Lazaris/Jach/" have little confidence in you to ever work serious magick , and even less in our "techniques".

Jeeez if Lazaris so so f'n concerned then why doesn't he just take a couple million out of Ma North's Christmas Club account and invest in low risk mutual funds on behalf of his followers?

God knows they invested enough currency, coin and otherwise in him over the years. Not to mention the price one pays to pretend that Caftaned-Flipflopwearing-Muzakplaying Mafia in Orlando is anything other than Jim and TammyFaye without the Cross.

[[[So what about the magic of generating abundance? I doubt that most people who bought in would have listened to that proposition without their trust in Lazaris, though Jach made the presentation. So Lazaris was allowing "his good name" to be used for a dubious reason way back.]]]

Its sad, your right..I bet most of the people that signed up for tradevest were advised against it by friends and financial advisors, but they had more confidence [ being cultified] in "Jachzaris" than in their own judgement.

I think its importatant to realize these are not dumb people!! These were smart, smart people for the most part I am sure.

I wonder if JachZaris would ask those people to process how they allowed their "negative egos" to be suckered into a get rich quick scheme?

Bet that never came up.

[[Happily all that diving and breaching in the pools of abundance, value and freedom worked well enough to send me on a Lazaris search, and voila this site appeared.]]

LOL..very funny..diving and breaching..

I had an interesting experience around finding this site. I was on a walk, thinking about where to go next, metaphysically and it came to me that I really had to establish once and for all if I lived in a hostile universe, a friendly one or an indifferent one.

When I got home I had the strong impulse, clear, not pushy or desperate, just strong to search the Yahoo engine with the phrase "friends of Lazaris" it was very specific. I found this site and I think there is a connection between what I had been contemplating on that walk and finding out the truth about Lazaris. [ Btw, if you search Yahoo with just Lazaris you don't get this site]

This was friday night, its now wed...in that time I have ended my association with them and feel a great relief.

Thanks for writing Lorca,

Cheers,

You said, "I think those of us heavily into Lazaris became focusbound on Lazaris and the teachings. It became the organizing principle of how I experienced the world."

Exactly my feeling. As I am going through the process of deprogramming myself (along with 2 other members of my family), I'm deconstucting that Lazaris "focusbound" organizing principle that I used to perceive the world for so long. It takes patience because memories, feelings beliefs are all getting turned over in my mind.I experience a variety of feelings on different days. This site is a great steadying support through all the ups and downs. Once in a while I even experience a moment of disbelief at all this upheaval, which started beginning Jan. 8 when I first arrived at this site.

Good thing you spared yourself the private consultation. I had two that kept me busy processing B.S. information for months.

Lorca (Jade)