That other thread was getting pretty long so I'm opening a new one.

Tip: When opening a new thread to continue an existing one, opening a new browser with the ld thread in it makes it easy to reference and cut and paste.

In the old thread people were discussing what it is that made us accept Lazaris with perhaps less discernment than we should have.

Speaking for myself, I don't think it was necessarily a lack of confidence or any kind of crisis in my life. I had always believed, and wanted to believe, in Magic. I felt that there must be a better way of living than has been taught to us by our various institutions. Perhaps because my family was so unhappy, I thought that people in general were less happy than they actually are.

So then the question was Why. Why are so many people unhappy? Or at least less happy than they would like to be. I didn't - and don't - accept that that's just the way it is: you do the best you can to get from one end of life to the other without too much pain.

I wasn't satified with that answer. I also wasn't satisfied with the Protestant work ethic - just work a lot harder and you can be a little more happy. In all honesty, I think there was much more happiness in the world than I was willing or able to see. But, nonetheless, the perception of a lack of happiness motivated me to explore less conventional avenues of success.

I wanted to work Magic and I tried many different approaches from chanting Nom myoho renge kyo and Hare Krishna to visualization and meditation. I had a fair amount of success, probably mostly due to my determination to not let fate, karma or circumstances dictate my level of happiness.

I had played around with metaphysics - doing past-life regressions, working with crystals, even working with my Future Self. But I didn't have a clear idea of what I was doing.

Then I heard a Lazaris tape. Finally, here was someone speaking clearly and specifically about how to work Magic. It appealed very much to my left brain. It appealed to my sense of order, that this energy - this Magic - could be consciously, purposefully and systematically directed. I appreciate my work as a software engineer because I know that if my program doesn't work, I can fix it. I know that the computer will respond in a logical and predictable way. Predictable, that is, if the programming is done properly. Of course there is the rare occasion that there is a bug in the operating system, or there is something else beyond my control - but it is very rare. That means I almost always have the power to make it work the way I (or my employers[g]) wish.

If this same methodical approach can be taken to program success in life, then I'm in. I do believe that it can be done. I believe that I have done it - not perfectly, but better and better with more practice and understanding.

"Lazaris" put so much of the concepts of Reality Creation in perspective in a very accessable format. The Higher Realms myth made it more credible - the ability to create one's reality consciously was no longer just wishful thinking on the part of imperfect and desperate humans - it was verified by a "Higher Being". Perhaps in that sense it was a lack of confidence - I didn't believe in my own instincts and intuition about Reality Creation, I needed confirmation from on high.

Well, that confirmation is gone now. But I still believe in our ability and our right to create our own reality as we wish. That we sometimes fail is no cause for shame and especially is no justification for judgments from others.

So, for me there were what I believe to be healthy reasons for my interest in "Lazaris". The unhealthy part may have been the lack of Self-Trust that I could figure it out for myself, perhaps with help of real friends. I do know that I've evolved enough to not need the "Lazaris" crutch anymore. And I may still make some mistakes in judgment in the future, but that's part of the growing process.

As for "Lazaris" offering help, I don't see any problem with accepting help from someone to accomplish something that we are struggling with, or even not strugging. Help could be simply a gift. It's not always a manipulation or act of "saviourhood". When we give a gift to someone, it doesn't necessarily mean that we think we're in a superior position, that the person can't acquire the gift on their own. It could be a way of expressing our Love and Humanity. That "Lazaris" claimed to offer us a gift of help doesn't mean that we needed it. That "Lazaris" misrepresented "their" true motivation and identity is a big problem. That "they" misused beautiful Truths doesn't make them any less true. It's not the acceptance or offering of help that's the problem - it's the manipulation of the "giver" and the deference of the "recipient" that are at issue.

Something else that works for me when responding to a post from another thread is to cut and paste the post I'm answering right into the new window, respond to it, and edit it our, or parts of it out that I'm not needing in my response.

Also, due to the problems I've been having over the past few days with my internet connection bumping me right in the middle of submitting and making me lose the post, I've remembered that tried and true method of writing a post in my Word Pad and then copying it into the message window after saving it on the Word Pad. This is a good way to keep from losing posts.

I just hate it when I've written my heart out and then *poof* it's gone!

Anyway, just some thoughts since many of us have reported the loss of posts for one reason or another.

Lots of love,

Thank you for writing about your process of thinking with discrimination.

You said: "No need to think there is something wrong with us for being suckered in."

So true Malene, as you say, Jach may have used some mighty clever methods to sucker us
in, and it was just too unimaginable to us in this environment of love with integrity that we could have been being lied to by the bearer of this inspiring message. I think the key is, as you suggest to take this as an experience in learning to look at any situation from all sides. We all fell for the beautiful set and forgot to take a tour backstage. LOL, we actually forgot that there was a backstage, as there is in all spectacular productions like the "Lazaris show".

You said: "Or maybe the deal just seemed to sweet to pass up?"

It sure did seem like one sweet deal, and yes, very hard to pass up the belief that this perfectly loving and wise entity decided to come along and answer all our questions for us. But, isn't that the hook of all cults. How many times have we heard the consumer awareness phrase "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't", yet we fell for this one, hook, line and sinker.

About the Savior, you asked:
"In what way is it a terrible thing? How does he define being a savior? What does he say happens if you act the role of savior?"
Basically, Lazaris tells us that the desire to play Savior is a character flaw, a part of the "negative-ego", that spiteful, hateful, destructive, stupid part of ourselves with which we are co-dependent.
Lazaris says that Saviors always end up hanging from the cross. I can't say that I totally disagree with that. Also, Saviorism can be a way of controlling others and setting ourselves up as "better than" they are. I agree with this in part also.

It isn't so much that the concepts Lazaris discusses are completely wrong, for me it is that they are interwoven with some subtle messages, and false definitions which ultimately cause us to constantly doubt ourselves and our every action. Also, these concepts are used by C/S to judge us. They decide based on a post on a message board, or some breach of "propriety" at a workshop that we are "Saviors" or whatever the diagnosis du jour happens to be. The word Savior in C/S lingo is a "loaded" term. It means much more than you would attribute to it based on a dictionary or common use defintion. So, it's hard to actually explain the full meaning and implication to someone who hasn't studied the materials. My point in using it is that if Lazaris' diagnosis of Savior is correct, then we either "need" Lazaris, or Lazaris is playing Savior, because Saviors offer help as a way of manipulating others, not because it is needed. This accusation and diagnosis of "Savior" was flung around the Forum like popcorn at a Saturday matinee. I'm just pointing out the inconsistancy here. We were always being told and for some reason came to firmly believe that Lazaris is always consistant.

You said: "My advice is, write down the whole belief. Look at what it is in that belief that might have played on fears. In this case fears of doing something wrong by helping or by playing savior? What does it exactly mean to play savior anyways?"

Yes, and are we always playing Savior when we reach out to help someone? I do agree that sometimes "helping" is a way of manipulating, but not always. We can't paint with such a broad brush, and we do need to consider our motives when we are feeling moved to "help".

So, yes, especially given our conditioning about "playing Savior" from Lazaris, it is important to exercise discrimination, and taking the belief apart piece by piece and looking at it is very good practice.

You said: "Ahh.. Ya gotta wonder about the double standards of cult leaders."

LOL, I don't even know that "double" is adequate with these mind twisting game players. Maybe it's a "bases loaded triple" with them.

You ask: "What does "help" actually mean for you in this context? What does playing savior mean? What is good about helping? What is good about playing savior? How does playing savior and helping differ from each other? What can be the consequences of either helping or playing savior? What is not good about helping or playing savior?"

I do very much believe based on my own experience that we cannot "save" anyone, nor should we try. Helping and saving are not the same thing. The lines between the two became very, very blurred in the Forum. I believe that the only true salvation comes from self understanding, no one can do that for another. But, we can support and love each other, and lend a helping hand when it is needed.

Playing savior to me is when we end up hurting people in our zeal to show them the error of their ways, or of doing things for them that they could do for themselves, like figure something out on their own. For example, parents who continue to support their adult children long after the "kid" could support themselves. This isn't kindness, it's disempowerment and it hurts rather than helps.

You ask: "How are spiritual people "supposed" to interact? Why? What is a spiritual person anyways? Why are we supposed to interact in any way differently? In which ways differently are we supposed to interact?"

There is a seriously good question, what is a "spiritual person"? We are all spiritual.
I suppose for the purpose we use the term here it means someone who is consciously working to explore and develop their spirituality, or their relationship to The Divine, God/Goddess, The Universe, whatever we call that belief we have in something bigger and wiser than we are. To me, we don't have any license to treat anyone differently because they have stated that as their goal and desire. We should treat everyone with the same respect we want for ourselves, whether they claim to be "spiritual" or not.

"What did Jach/Lazaris teach you? What do you actually think about those teachings? What does other people say?"

Yes, this is important, and what is more important than the stated teachings are the subtle messages behind them.

Jach has a knowledge of many schools of thought. He isn't a stupid man, and I believe that he researches his topics carefully. There is a lot of really good theory and information behind the Lazaris teachings. Jach draws from Carl Jung, and many of the great teachers and philosophers. It's a shame in a way that he didn't choose to just offer this thoughts as an expression of himself, rather than using the concept of an "all wise" entity to deliver them. But, if he were to do that, he would be open to doubts and questions like all humans are, and I guess maybe Jach's ego couldn't stand that. He just found a way to gain a lot of followers who don't dare to question him.

Also, Jach doesn't stop at offering philosophy, he provides "techniques" which promise to magicially and miraculously "heal" us and allow us to function as "reality creators", or "magicians". These techniques are promised to give us the skills to surf through life elegantly, creating and manifesting our dreams and desires with ease.
The only thing that can stop us are our own "blockages". Given that I have yet to meet one Lazaris follower who can instantly manifest whatever they want, I would have to say the techniques don't work, and are nothing but high minded hogwash. So, here you have thousands of people attending seminars, and buying tapes to learn these techniques believing that as soon as they get it right their will be a payoff, and the payoff never comes. What comes instead is an endless sense of shame and failure.

Jach gets into some very deep and personal areas of human consciousness, and he does it without training or a license. There is a lot of profound emotion, and deep "work" into the most private parts of our minds and consciousness. Most psychiatrists wouldn't dare to so frivolously address a group of people on such sensitive and potentially even traumatizing issues as childhood sexual abuse for example. He literally provides his own made up form of group therapy under the guise of Lazaris.

You said: "Look at this from as many angles as possible..."

Yes, and there are many ways to look, that's for sure, and lots to look at.

I do also believe that we must take a lot of time and attention to the possibility that we were being subjected to subliminal suggestions above and beyond the actual words we were hearing on the tapes and in the seminars. Does the music include subliminals,e.g.? Some of the music became so familiar and so much a part of some very deep trance states that it literally began to put me into trance every time I heard it.

Anyway, gotta run. More thoughts.

Thanks for writing Malene, I know that some of your questions were rhetorical, that you were encouraging us to ask them of ourselves rather than necessarily respond to each of them, but I wanted to do a little thinking out loud, and also give you a bit of a peek into the teachings and philosophies.

Lots of love,

Nice to see you again!

You said: " There is such a great beauty in who we all are, all of us seeking truth and answers to the mysteries of our very being."

Yes, I agree, and you say it so beautifully.

You say: " And I think Lazaris did help to answer a lot of that"

Well, like I said, it's clear that Jach has studied a lot of philosophies and theories. My problem is now separating out what I believe and what I don't. When we thought it was coming from this place of incredible love and wisdom it was much easier to accept as fact a lot of things that I now realize to be the thinking of human minds, who might or might not be on track.

I know a lot of the material was helpful to me, because it got me looking at some deeper issues, but now I question how valid the perspective is. For example, I changed my strategy of interaction with my daughter due to the Lazaris information and advise from C/S. At the time I believed I was doing the right think and it felt right. Now, given that my relationship with my daughter is worse than ever, I'm questioning the thinking and beliefs which sent me down that path with her. So, at this point, I'm not feeling too good about the "answers" that Lazaris provides. I think it is more accurate that they are the theories of one Jach Pursel, and just as valuable as anything can be which comes from the mind of a liar and manipulator of minds.

You say: "but I've since learned that many others say the same things. But, like I said in a previous post, I don't regret my time with Lazaris "before" the forum.

Yes, many others say the same things, and many dispute those things, so for me it comes back down to thinking for myself. I'm not sure that I would use the term "regret" because I experienced a lot of joy during my Lazaris years, and I sure met some awesome people, but I'm quite sure I wouldn't want to do it again. I'll take my experiences from a cleaner plate the next time! I'm glad that you have no regrets though. That shows that you can take your experiences, learn and grow from them, and keep on truckin'. Nothing wrong with that!

"Through my times with Lazaris, I did connect with All That Is and haven't lost that connection, only now it's something that I know, rather than feel I need to go to a seminar to renew. Sometimes it's more intense than others, but that's all to do with my humaness, and I've learned it's OK to be such a human! Now I realize tht that connection was with me all along and just had to admit and be conscious of it.8-)"

There you sum up my thoughts in a nutshell. Here we were running ourselves ragged and paying for something we already had all along.

You said: "IMO, Lazaris was the closest to God that we could ever "communicate" with in words and touch. There was no work involved! Lazaris was there for us always and all we had to do was put on a tape or music that he used at a seminar to "remember."

Well, I don't agree that Lazaris had anything to do with helping us communicate with God. Quite the contrary, I believe they diverted us from doing that. What we were clicking into was the psychic manipulations that were probably deliberately designed to cause that incredible feeling of love and connectedness.
I believe that any connecting with God we did was on our own, out of our own desire to do so, and that was inspite of Lazaris, not because of them. To me, that sense of "remembering" was us getting more easily taken into trance by Jach with each session.
I immediately went there recently when listening to a tape for just a minute or two.
I literally felt myself being lulled and drawn in, so I turned the tape off immediately. No thanks Jach, I'll take my inspirations from elsewhere in the future.

You said: "It was the LOVE that got me hooked!!!!! And it was the fear of losing that great LOVE that caused so much pain after joining the forum."

Exactly, and it was because we believed we needed Jach/Lazaris to bring that love to us that we were so afraid of losing our connection to them, and why we were so afraid of falling into displeasure with those who were so "generous" in "sharing" Lazaris with us. It is a deliberate trap IMO. The whole thing is designed to make us afraid of "losing" Lazaris. How could we lose someone who claims to love us just as we are "forever and a day"? But the threat was always there, very real, and very much encouraged.

"And it's more than OK to admit that I want and need to be loved. It's even better to honor and actively love myself, and have no need to honor and love myself by shaming, insulting, or humiliating another person the way it was done in the forum."

Right, that isn't love, who needs it? Ultimately, the only real love is the love we feel for others and from others who do actually love us, instead of using the term and our desire to manipulate us.

You said: "Someone said that they felt co-dependent with the forum and I can see that now. Codependency is a bunch of nasty games that are painful, someone being the bully/someone being the victim. I think the forum is one of the strongest codependent relationships I've ever seen, only in the forum the "gang" of bullys would gang up on one victim. Sometimes others who wanted to be a member of the "gang" would join the bullys."

Exactly! and that is not love. The dependency was deliberately created by them, they need us to be dependent to keep the paychecks coming, hence the Co in co-dependency.

You said: "No one would jump in in defense because they were afraid or didn't have time to be the "savior" who would then get crucified. There's truth in that but is another half-truth as far as the forum goes. People were treated as though they were light brained imbiciles and were attacked and disrespected and were the "meat" for a bunch of pirana.(sp?)"

I don't think it was being a savior to want to stop the terrorism in the forum, that it was deemed so by them is just proof to me that they use these terms not to enlighten or help us, but to have a way to manipulate us. If you saw someone getting beaten up on the street and tried to help, would you be a
"savior" in negative ego? No, you would be a compassionate human being. This use of "savior" in the context used in the Forum is just manipulation, plain and simple. It allows bullies to run rampant and unchecked by shaming and judging anyone who tries to help.

You said: "Like I said, I can now LOL at "myself" for my dependency because I know that happened because of the love inside of me, but that's only after the healing. There is NOTHING to LOL about at the way people are treated in the forum. It's despicable that wonderful people are made to "cow-tow" to the pranks of these bullys because they are so afraid of losing the LOVE of God/Goddess/All That Is. THAT WILL NOT AND NEVER WILL HAPPEN!!! It's despicable and rotten to know how it all began with Tradevest and especially how it was hidden."

No, it isn't funny, it is a terrible terrible abuse that goes on there.

You said: "Now I'm rambling and it's your faults! 8-) You wonderful people have given me so much to think about. "Maybe" the forum was a test we created to see if we really would honor ourselves when it came down to it? 8-)hmmmmm
Even if that were true, that's no excuse to act as shamefully as the "gang" does."

LOL, I think we all give each other lots to think about, that's for sure. I don't know if the forum was a "test", but I know it taught me a few things anyway, but you are correct, it is no excuse for abuse.

There is no excuse for that Gang.

Thanks for writing Groovin'! It's always a delight to see your posts here. I love your warm sense of humor!!!

Lots of love,

Katie

I think what you said about "But I didn't have a clear idea of what I was doing." really fits how I felt about my metaphysics when I started with Lazaris. I still feel that way to a certain extent, but am more relaxed about it now. Glad you started this new thread.

What you're saying here is really significant. Spiritual core, childhood trauma, hidden shame -- THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO BOUNDARIES. This transgression occurs in all manners:
with groups at seminars, with forum members, with people who get the microphone at seminars, during phone consultations, Saurday night "healing" meditations, and during the crystal ceremony. As I said in an email, I recently made a very appropo typo, I wrote "bleedings" instead of blendings. Psychic vampirism.

For most people, myself included, it's hard to fathom that anything and everything is fair game for con artists. I've had to learn to stetch my imagination in terms of what lengths some people will go to when it comes to exploiting others financially, emotionally, intellectually and spiritually. They are really pathetic parasites masquerading as indiviuals who are giving us something of value. All the while , they are ripping it off of us.

You said: "What you're saying here is really significant. Spiritual core, childhood trauma, hidden shame -- THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO BOUNDARIES. This transgression occurs in all manners:
with groups at seminars, with forum members, with people who get the microphone at seminars, during phone consultations, Saurday night "healing" meditations, and during the crystal ceremony. As I said in an email, I recently made a very appropo typo, I wrote "bleedings" instead of blendings. Psychic vampirism."

LOL, yes, I noticed when you said "bleedings" and assumed it was deliberate! It seems such an appropriate word. We were being bled IMO. Yes psychic vampirism is a good term. Also interesting that you bring up the microphone interactions. I wrote about that on another thread, how the stories "Lazaris" is telling people seem to be getting more bizarre and sadistic. Imagine burdening someone with "memories" of a traumatic lifetime that never even happened.

This is where Jach is stepping dangerously close to the line of actually breaking the law. Licensed psychologists have been prosecuted for encouraging "delayed memory syndrome" if that is the correct term. This is where psychologists have been found to have "helped" someone remember childhood abuses which cause them to become alienated from their families, sometimes these cases have landed in court, and it was later discovered that there was no truth to these memories at all. People's lives can be ruined by this kind of irresponsible "therapy" that Jach is practicing without a license to do so. Scary stuff.

You said: "For most people, myself included, it's hard to fathom that anything and everything is fair game for con artists. I've had to learn to stetch my imagination in terms of what lengths some people will go to when it comes to exploiting others financially, emotionally, intellectually and spiritually. They are really pathetic parasites masquerading as indiviuals who are giving us something of value. All the while , they are ripping it off of us."

Yes, we no doubt have all had to stretch our imaginations to imagine how and to what extent we have been exploited on so many levels. Yes, they are pathetic parasites, I fully agree. It feels good to get angry about that, doesn't it?

As ugly as the whole mess becomes as the truth unfolds and each of us come to our own personal realizations, it also feels very liberating to me to be able to talk about it here. I feel like some invisible restraints have been removed, I'm unshackled, so to speak.

Thanks again for an insightful post.

Lots of love,

Katie

Katie said: This is where Jach is stepping dangerously close to the line of actually breaking the law. Licensed psychologists have been prosecuted for encouraging "delayed memory syndrome" if that is the correct term.

The official term is False Memory Syndrome. There is a False Memory Syndrome Foundation (FMSF) I believe out of Canada, but I am not sure about the location. Personally, I believe the FMSF has many, many good points, and knowledge about how memory and the mind works. Their info is definitely worth research. I also believe that due to the nature of the organization there is an unfortunate opportunity for real offenders of sexual crimes to go protected under their umbrella.

Katie said: This is where psychologists have been found to have "helped" someone remember childhood abuses which cause them to become alienated from their families, sometimes these cases have landed in court, and it was later discovered that there was no truth to these memories at all. People's lives can be ruined by this kind of irresponsible "therapy" that Jach is practicing without a license to do so. Scary stuff.

yes, Scary stuff. On the other side of the FMSF, is the people convinced that Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA) exists. According to these victims, and psychology/psychiatry professionals of various kinds a special kind of Satanistic Ritual abuse is running rampant all throughout the US. SRA includes horrible stories of young girls giving birth to children and being forced to slaughter and participate in cannibalism rituals of those children. While there is absolutely NO PROOF that these women were ever pregnant. Or that anyone was killed in the locations they pointed out. Also due to modern forensic science it is impossible to remove all traces of blood after a killing.

There are a extreme amount of bizarre stories about this, and other stuff, and the (SRA) party line to those memories seems to be that since there is no proof it happened it is because Satan helped remove the proof. I have been in contact with people whom I am convinced have been unethically implanted such memories, and talking to them is bizarre.

According to the FMSF these memories are implanted through hypnosis, and unethical use of psychological techniques.

According to the believers in SRA there are many victims out there whose stories goes unheard. Personally, I also believe that sexual abuse in many forms does exist, and the victims have as much a need to be heard and understood as I have after leaving my cult.

Of course, this is a hot topic in cult watching circles, as the FMSF claims the psychology professionals who comes up with those cases actually uses mind control techniques to convince their clients it happened.

I hope I have done a decent job of representing both points of view here. It might be worth doing some research on it for you folks :o).

Lorca said: "For most people, myself included, it's hard to fathom that anything and everything is fair game for con artists. I've had to learn to stetch my imagination in terms of what lengths some people will go to when it comes to exploiting others financially, emotionally, intellectually and spiritually.

In my group we were not implanted false memories as such. However, our real memories were manipulated, and anything painful in our childhood or background where again and again brought up exagerated and held against us. The teacher would early on find out where our emotional weaknesses were, and make full use of that knowledge. When I realized the very first time she made use of one of my emotional weaknesses I became shocked how fast she had found where it was. Maybe she was just guessing that it was a way to handle me. But it was amazing that she knew so much about how to handle me that quickly.

If we responded in any emotional way to her emotional manipulations we would be punished.

Everything is fair game for a cult leader... Absolutely EVERYTHING.

Do notice in Steven Hassan's BITE model, there is a part that talks about unethical use of confession. Having to tell the teacher all your painful memories and having the teacher dig into any pain that you might hold certainly qualifies.

Katie said: It feels good to get angry about that, doesn't it?

Both anger, sadness, pain, and fear are normal responses after leaving a cult. It wont last if it is taken seriously as it happens.

Learning, as I believe all of you are right now, what mind control actually is brings us a giant step closer to protect ourselves from it ever happening again.

Katie said: I feel like some invisible restraints have been removed, I'm unshackled, so to speak.

We are all FREE now. That is the one huge, incredible change we made for ourselves... We are free.

With lots of love,

Malene