To be sure, there are certain parts of the teachings that I agree with totally (or pert' near):

1. Reality Creation: Maybe the central theme of the teachings. You'll get no argument from me that we create our own reality and that the external (physical world) is a reflection of our internal (spiritual) world.
   
2. Hidden Agendas: To some extent a subset of Reality Creation. That we sometimes - often - create a reality other than the one we ostensibly want due to conflicting desire; e.g. a desire to manipulate through weakness could override a desire to succeed
   
3. Appreciation of the Feminine: That we all have both masculine and feminine traits, regardless of our gender, and that neither is better or worse than the other.
   
4. Self-generated Karma: that karma is a phenomona that we impose on ourselves - it is not dictated by the gods
   
5. Socialized Rascism and Sexism: Lazaris states that we all are socialized to be racist and sexist and we continue to be until we consciously work to change it.
   
6. Time is an illusion: We can change the past. We can travel through time.
   
7. Help from Future Self: Our Future selves can provide us with help with the insight that they have gained that we haven't yet acquired. Likewise, we, as the Future Self to out past, including past lives can offer similar help.
   
8. Unfairness and impotence of Punishment: That punishment doesn't work, at least not very well and that noone has the right to inflict it on another
   
9. The importance of Honoring our Emotions: We need to accept, acknowledge and release our emotions, whether they be deemed good or bad.
   
10. Chakra Power: The ability to heal and evolve via our spinal centers.
    
11. Working with Night Dreams: I believe that we can heal and learn quite a bit within the dream state
    

Sounds like I agree with quite a few fundamenmtal principles espoused by Lazaris. What then it the problem?
Well, for one, all of these ideas are available elsewhere.

Indian yogis have been writing for millennia
about how to create one's reality. They didn't use those words - they spoke of "miracles" and of realizing that the physical world is an illusion with no power over us. Many of them demonstrated reality creation by manifesting physical objects out of thin air. The yogis also spoke about the ability to travel through time. They may have covered all of the above topics, but these are the ones with which I am familiar. They also suggested that miracles are created within a framework of intense devotion to God, not something our yuppie culture wants to hear. Yes, "Lazaris" mentions "God/Goddess/All That Is", but almost in passing, and without any sense of devotion - Hinduism repackaged for the "Me Generation".

Many modern thinkers have espoused the idea that racism and sexism are socialized and institutionalized and can only be treated through conscious effort and education.

The spin that Lazaris puts on karma is not that different than the teaching of great yogic masters. It's different than the popular view of karma, but only because the popular view is based on a shallow interpretation of the concept. The great yogis also spoke very much about the power of chakras and there are a few modern day books - not channeled - that go into great detail about how to work with chakras.

Much of the psychological information is available in books such as Games People Play and I'm OK, You're OK, both of which were popular in the 1970's. These books, as I recall, deal very much with Transactional Analysis, which postulates that people relate to each other
from their adaptive adolescent, critical parent, etc.

Much of the basics of Reality Creation - the notion that our reality is created via thoughts, feeling, etc. - is contained in the Silva Mind Control method. It's also in the Seth material, but that's probably also a fraud. Certainly any of it which was produced after Jane Roberts
passed, given that Seth said they would only channel through her.

I've had much more success working with night dreams without the Lazaris tape on the subject. I found that tape to be totally useless. Ditto for the crystal tapes.

Some of these phenomena I experienced before I heard of Lazaris. For example I did a past life regression where I helped to heal the person I was in that past life. I deduced from this experience that I could accept similar help from my Future Self. It felt good to have "Lazaris" reinforce this revelation, but it wasn't necessary.

Much of the Lazaris Material is stuff that is so obvious - or should be - that I question why we would need a being from the Higher Realms to tell us. Do we really need Lazaris to tell us that judgments can be destructive? Or that we ought to be compassionate with each other? (OK, I'll grant that the Orlando Gang may need someone to tell them that, but most of us can figure it out on our own. And they don't heed Lazaris' teachings anyway). Do we need a "higher being" to tell us that God loves us or that we ought to respect the sovereignty of other nations? (Again, Orlando Gang excluded)

All of this information is available through existing texts and/or through a reasonable amount of thought. I will grant that Jach has put it into a very accessable format. It certainly is easier to listen to Lazaris tapes than to read the writings of many philosophers, psychologists, yogis, etc. But is it really more elegant? Not if the price of easy access is our dignity, Self-esteem and dedication to Truth.

These are the bits that I agree are valid. There are quite a few tenets with which I disagree or question. I'll post my feelings about them seperately.

I'll list a few here which don't even warrant seperate posts:

1. Orion Experimentation: Lazaris claims that humanity resulted from experimentation by Orions or some such nonsense. No evidence that any of this is true - extremely unlike that it is true, and irrelevant even if it is.
   
2. Arthurian Legend: It's a legend, not a fact. As with any great legend, it contains some useful metaphors. These can be garnered without the help of Lazaris.
   
3. Atlantis and Lemuria: See Arthurian Legend.
   
4. Peny North's loving nature: Gag me with an over-priced crystal.
   
5. Lazaris "himself": Right, dude, you were floating around the Universe, came across Peny North and didn't run in the opposite direction? And you've got something to teach us?
   
6. Opening of Sirius Vortex: Did anyone feel a significant shift of energy when the Sirius Vortex allegedly opened a few years ago? I didn't - but then that could be because I was in "negative ego"
   
7. Why Lazaris refers to Jach as "the channel": Check this out - Lazaris says they call Jach "the channel" because it's difficult for them to pronounce the "A" in Jach. Doesn't the "A" in "channel" sound the same as the "A" in Jach? Could it really be self-loathing?
   

More to come...

Very funny, some of that! I guess we're both in a sarcastic mood today. I posted some tapes for sale on ebay tonight expressing a similar irreverence. I put all four of the NeverEnding Shame tapes for sale.
I should have just called them Shame, Shame Shame, Shame Shame Shame, and Shame in Spades. When do we get to actually END all this SHAME???

Regarding the reason Lazaris doesn't mention Jach's name, I was just reading through some old email in which we are told that one of the very early "friends" told how Lazaris used to refer to Jach as "the unit".

Well, either Lazaris doesn't think much of Jach, or "they" can't pronounce his name (right), or Jach doesn't think too much of himself. I wonder which is true?

Very weird stuff, nevertheless.

Makes ya wonder what we were thinkin', yeah?

Love,

Just thinking that saying the name Jach might actually be a "trigger" word that forces Jach to lose concentration? Something like a snap-of-the-fingers to come out of hypnosis/self-hypnosis. Something like a "safe" word to call one back to reality when there is danger?

Love,

Interesting idea you have there about "Jach" being a trigger word. It would make sense that Jach does go into a somewhat altered-state while he is "channelling".

As a musician, I can attest that I perform better when my consciousness is altered (not by drugs[g]) and that my consciousness is altered by performing. It works both ways.

One trigger for me is self-consciousness, wondering if I'm doing it well enough, if my performance is being received well. This "ego-consciousness" is distracting and has a negative impact on the performance. A good actor needs to really "become" the character, so it stands to reason that any reminder of the actor's real personality would be a distraction.

Watching this post reminds me of the faith struggles that I had right after leaving, and in many ways still has. It has been so hard to reconcile my own faith, the faith that I had before joining the group, with what I learned during my time in the group, with who I am now.

For the first long time after leaving the group it was impossible for me to conceive of believing in any different way than what the group had taught me to believe. Until I finally realized what an incredible amount of fear, or should I say TERROR there was in some of their beliefs. I was for a while there convinced that the spirits would strike me dead, that I would be haunted by the spirits for the rest of my life, that I would be punished for the rest of my life... etc, etc... My teacher used to say that once we had accepted her as a teacher she would always keep a spiritual eye on us even if we left the group, at the time it sounded great, once I was out of the group it terrified me.

When I realized that I was still alive, and that somehow I had to try and rebuild my life again it cast doubt on everything. Many things I couldnt, and still cant stop believing in, they are just too real for me, and come too close to what I truely believe in myself. But if I believe that the spirits I learned about during the trance sessions in my former group are in fact real, that then makes it hard to fight against the phobias off those spirits that my teacher taught. What can I believe from back then, and what cant I?

I have found it a long road, from still believing pretty much everything they had taught me in the first year or so after leaving, till questioning everything, till now, slowly, ever so slowly getting an idea what I really believe, and how and why I believe it. It is still influenced by the fear indoctrinations though, so that is what I have to fight against still.

I think it is important to take all the teachings of a cult and examine them one by one, pretty much in the way you have done. Spend some time with all those teachings, and find out exactly how that belief influences your life, and if that is a belief you really want to keep, and wether or not wanting to keep it is based in fear of retribution, or if it truely is your own belief. In my experience this process takes some time, but, to me it has been well worth it. I have also found it worthwhile to examine the beliefs from the opposite perspective, ie from the doubters perspective and look at why some people does not like or accept a certain belief.... That gives an interesting counter point.

As for the silva mind method, I have seen you guys mention it several times. I have the silva mind method book, but unfortunatly its in Danish so I cant offer to lend it to you :o). The silva mind method, is simply a derivative of all those visualization techniques that has been floating around the new age world. It has a lot of good stuff to it, and a lot of exagerated stuff, and there is absolutely nothing new in what it teaches...In Denmark I know it made the new age rounds big time along with est training back in the 80ties, early 90ties. BTW, est trainings is another thing to be just a little careful of in my not so very humble opinion for those reading this mail!

As for this comment:

Ted wrote: Lazaris "himself": Right, dude, you were floating around the Universe, came across Peny North and didn't run in the opposite direction? And you've got something to teach us?

ROFL. Thats funny :o). I love it.

Anyways, I hope you folks have a great week.

It is an interesting exercize to take the major components of the teachings and analyze them from an objective point of view. I did think a lot about all of the teachings while I was in the fold, but from an assumption that the information was correct - given that it came from the "Higher Realms"[g].

Now that I've rejected the idea that Lazaris is from the Higher Realms, it's easy to slip into analyzing the teachings from the opposite bias - that they're false. It's important to be as objective as possible. I wouldn't want to deprive myself of wisdom simply because it came from "Lazaris" - or that I first heard it from "Lazaris".

Part of the cult strategy is to keep people from analyzing objectively. There are many aspects of the Lazaris teaching that I agree with, even after objective analysis. But then, after "Lazaris" gained my trust with the good stuff, they put out some highly questionable material which I assumed to be true based on their track record. If I didn't understand or agree with it, it must have been my fault.

The fear of retribution within the Lazaris community is largely fear of our own "negative ego". "Lazaris" says that the negative ego is out to destroy us. If we give it ammunition - e.g. doubting "Lazaris" or the Inner Circle - it gains power to fulfill it's ambition.

I'm glad you got a kick out of my note to "Lazaris". There was a time where I couldn't even think those words - and calling Lazaris "Dude"[g] - let alone post them publicly. It's therapeutic to be able to make light of something that has been deemed sacred.

My sister was involved with est for awhile. She took Katie and me to one of their seminars. Of course, they tried to sign us up! When we told them that we were satisfied with the teachings of Yogananda, they sent an Indian over to talk to us and explain why Hinduism wasn't complete or relevant[lol].

One thing that really turned us off about est was that my sister went to Florida (where else) to volunteer her services at an est "Forum". She paid her own expenses and tuition while working for the organization. Then we learned that Concept: Synergy has the same deal - they have volunteers working the back tables and they have to pay for the privilege!

Interesting bit of Science Fiction. But is it an accurate description of the proper function of the ego and what causes it to not function properly?

FUNK & WAGNALLS Standard Desk Dictionary defines ego as:

1. The thinking, feeling, and acting self that is conscious of itself and aware of its distinction from the objects of its thought and perceptions.
   
2. Psychoanal. The conscious aspect of the psyche that develops through contact with the external world and resolves conflict between the id and the superego.
   
3. Informal Self-centeredness; conceit.
   

At best, "Lazaris" depiction of ego is a misnomer. There may be an aspect of us that is meant to act as a liaison, and we might misuse that aspect, but to refer to that aspect as ego is improper use of the language. Even the psychoanalytical definition has the ego making decisions. In fact, it's almost antithetical to Lazaris' description - the ego takes on the responsibility to regulate between the instinctual (id) and overly-moralizing (super-ego).

My own feelings about the function and dysfunction of ego are that the ego represents the part of us that is aware of our uniqueness, that distinguishes us from others. The dysfunction results from an over-emphasis of that distinction - the inability to recognize and realize the Oneness of us all. This can manifest as competitiveness. It can manifest as an inability or unwillingness to be responsible for our impact on others. For if we recognize our Oneness with others, the Golden Rule takes on new meaning. By doing unto others as we would have them do unto us, we are really doing unto ourselves - the part of "ourselves" that is masquerading as "someone else".

If we over-emphasize Oneness, then we could easily blame others for our actions - after all, if we are all One, they you are just as responsible for my actions as I am. It can also result is us not taking proper care of ourselves. So, from where I sit, a dysfunctional ego may be better described as an "imbalanced ego", rather than a "negative ego".

These are my thoughts about ego - they may or may not work for others - they are not coming from the "Higher Realms". It would be "egotistical" of me to think that my thoughts about this are gospel[g]. But the exercise demonstrates that Lazaris' teachings are not gospel either.

There may be a scarier middle ground here.

In reading all the speculation about what Lazaris is, fake or "real" it occured to me that as with Guru Muktananda, now Guru Mai (sp?) there is a strong probability of paranormal, if rather molevalent and "hypocritical/do gooder" 'outside' presence.

The Catholics call it: demonics or in New Age terms: lower astral spiritual terrorism/control.

Seems to me that these guru types: JZ/Ramtha, Jack/Lazaris, Muktananda/Mai (and the guru liniaged boob they 'channel') are ruthlessly out for the personal juice of very deep, deep spiritual power over people.

With no need for physical money on non-incarnate levels, they rig it so their 'channels' get lots of bootie for their ongoing part in the sick game of attention sucking.

Sounds to me as if Jack and Peny, by all accounts: two yuppie wanna bes may have been ripe for demonic/lower astral plucking and harvist back in 1974 when this "Lazaris" popped in to Jach's meditating mind.

Hope this angle adds a B-vitamin.

:0)
ESB

Hence, perhaps, those who were aware of the power of their own spirituality pre-Lazaris can put up with only so much abuse before jumping into a liferaft and off the ship? And, maybe, those who took the material very seriously and actually came into a closer relationship with THEIR OWN spirituality, eventually realize that something ain't clicking right in the Captain's Quarters?
Something to think about...

>>>And, maybe, those who took the material very seriously and actually came into a closer relationship with THEIR OWN spirituality, eventually realize that something ain't clicking right in the Captain's Quarters?<<<

What a mouthful of TRUTH you say here!!! It's also called Self-Trust, Personal Dominion, and Self-Love....Oh, and we could call it HONORING OURSELVES, too........but whatever we call it, IT IS PURE JOY and IT IS REAL!!!!!!

Welcome to you and ESB! :0) (I love that nose!)

Love and light,

Groovin Magi

ESB said: In reading all the speculation about what Lazaris is, fake or "real" it occured to me that as with Guru Muktananda, now Guru Mai (sp?) there is a strong probability of paranormal, if rather molevalent and "hypocritical/do gooder" 'outside' presence.

I have one little comment about your post above. Often when people leave cults they have been in for a long time there is an extreme amount of fear and phobias connected with leaving. These phobias can take many different forms, what they do have in common though, is that they are related to something that the group taught us. Maybe that God will strike us death if we leave, or that we cant survive without them, or, that the spirits will punish us, or that we will become swallowed up by evil spirits of different kinds. Or anything else the group can think up as they go along....

I think when leaving, and taking the time to ask the necessary questions it is healthy for a time to leave all those nightmareish thoughts for a bit. I think there is a potential for a lot of fear in your take on it, that Jach and Jeny was possessed by *lower* spirits of some kind.

I also think it is important to remember that the discoveries about how mind control works is in and off itself a good explanation for what happened. We dont need to think in ways of evil spirits or anything else for that matter.

The cult leader uses a series of well proven, well documented methods to get us under their control. They dont need help from any spirits to do this. Those techniques are not that hard to find for yourself, and to teach yourself. The techniques is also why a person like myself, who was in a very different group can come on these boards and share with you in the very hard journey of leaving. I was not in the same group, yet I was subjected to the same techniques, so I do understand what you are going through.

My point here is, that if you believe that those "channels" are channeling lower spirits, thats cool, it is your belief. However, there is a very down to earth easily understood other explanation, and that is the one of mind control.

Take care,
Malene

Thanks for your reply about "Lazaris'" possible integrity-corrupt non-physical nature.

I will say this: I have experienced a great many times with Jach/Lazaris when, in trance the level of connected knowledge, rapid/biting educational humor, and pick me out in a crowd of 500 specific "blending" mic vocalized words were, IMO more than any human being could rationally pre-form.

For instance, the time a dear friend was dieing of AIDS and would not see me. I had tried everything, and he had just walled of to me, and the world.

That week I sat in the middle of an Evening with Lazaris. During the blending, "Lazaris" spoke my name and said: "Don't try so hard". No one in Concept:Synergy had any knowledge of my friend's situation. The words this "Lazaris" spoke cut right through me, "he" apparently knew I was wide, wide open for a full-on, multi-megaton Love Bombing.

Something else, felt strong *exogenous* energy moving through my body. When I first began attending Lazaris seminars it was far stronger, but always, I could not help be aware of some sort of apparently conscious presence making it's non-physical existence known to me by *very* strongly tingling specific and seperate areas of my body.

Add to these, apparently paranormal abilities the sagging lack of personal integrity by this "Lazaris" and deductive logic does tell us that there is evidence of: 1) non-physical, traveling impact 2) unusual intuitive knowledge and ability.

To my eyes, this tips the scales of assesment in the direction of likely non-physicallity on the part of this "Lazaris" bloke.

A caviet: these very strong tingles were not felt after spoken "medatational" suggestion by Jach.

*********

What can be told of Werner Erhard's "group mind" psychic attacks on est ex-cult members with "counter intention" (self-respect) is especially troubling. A former est empolyee I know busted Werner on 60 minutes; just days later a blood clot very nearly kill him.
I learned this when he wheeled up to me at a Lazaris Weekend with a portable IV stuck in his arm.

Responsible, adult fear is a very, very good thing. I remember the time Peny censored ALL talk of ET abduction in the Compuserve Lazaris chat room. Ack. Love Is Letting Go Of Fear? Jerry Jampolski, you socially-castrated New Age milk toast: you are descernment-damaged.

Ehem.

ESB

ESB said: For instance, the time a dear friend was dieing of AIDS and would not see me. I had tried everything, and he had just walled of to me, and the world.

ESB said: That week I sat in the middle of an Evening with Lazaris. During the blending, "Lazaris" spoke my name and said: "Don't try so hard". No one in Concept:Synergy had any knowledge of my friend's situation. The words this "Lazaris" spoke cut right through me, "he" apparently knew I was wide, wide open for a full-on, multi-megaton Love Bombing.

Well, I can see a couple of other possible explanations apart from your explanation of spirits telling him what to say. One obvious explanation is that you might have looked worried, and since most people who are worried about something try very hard, atleast inside themselves, to find a solution, telling you to stop trying so hard wasnt really a very far stretch. In fact, telling someone to stop trying so hard is a very generic thing to say. It has a lot of potential for hitting the right note with a lot of people.

ESB said: Something else, felt strong *exogenous* energy moving through my body. When I first began attending Lazaris seminars it was far stronger, but always, I could not help be aware of some sort of apparently conscious presence making it's non-physical existence known to me by *very* strongly tingling specific and seperate areas of my body.

Again, this might have absolutely nothing at all to do with Lazaris/Jach. I have had experiences like that during meditation, both before and after my group involvement. Actually, most such experiences I had before my group involvement. It could be your own innate ability to meditate that gave you that experience, it could be that you simply hypnotized yourself into believing it was happening, or it could be something completely different.... No real proof here that it had anything to do with Lazaris/Jach.

ESB said: Add to these, apparently paranormal abilities the sagging lack of personal integrity by this "Lazaris" and deductive logic does tell us that there is evidence of: 1) non-physical, traveling impact 2) unusual intuitive knowledge and ability.

I am sorry, I see no evidence of apparent paranormal abilities neither do I see Non-physical, traveling impact, nor unusual intuitive knowledge and ability.

One thing cult leaders are experts of, are to give people seemingly magical experiences, that are set up and faked. This is such a good way to ensure their undying loyalty unfortunately. Telling someone who might be looking a bit worried "not to try so hard" is very easy, and no matter what that person is trying to do, or worried about, it is almost sure to hit the right note. As for your experiences during meditation, I just dont think those necessarily has anything at all to do with Lazaris/Jach.

ESB said: To my eyes, this tips the scales of assesment in the direction of likely non-physicallity on the part of this "Lazaris" bloke.

And, obviously, I do not necessarily agree with that deduction.

ESB said: A caviet: these very strong tingles were not felt after spoken "medatational" suggestion by Jach.

Hypnotic suggestion is just as often started by ourselves, or after conversations with others about the "energy" of stuff... Or with our own inherent beliefs... Or something totally different. In fact, mystical experiences are very easy to manipulate. No matter what, the experience was yours, there is nothing to suggest that there was a Lazaris actually inside you at the time you had the experience, so there is a certain chance that this experience had nothing at all to do with Lazaris/Jach.

*********

ESB said: What can be told of Werner Erhard's "group mind" psychic attacks on est ex-cult members with "counter intention" (self-respect) is especially troubling. A former est empolyee I know busted Werner on 60 minutes; just days later a blood clot very nearly kill him.
I learned this when he wheeled up to me at a Lazaris Weekend with a portable IV stuck in his arm.

Does this mean you believe the EST members used psychic means to make this person have a blood clot? Why do you believe it happened that way? For me the obvious deduction would be that the stress, fear and maybe even phobias about speaking out against the cult group had such a huge impact that this person got sick. Or, maybe the explanation is purely physical... Or maybe that person had other stresses in their life to bring this on. In any way, I see absolutely nothing to suggest to me, that mystical means was used to make a person get sick. While I agree with you that EST uses some fairly harsch recruiting and retention techniques, and in its own way can be as bad a cult as any, I see no reason to fear that they purposely use psychic means to make people sick.

ESB said: Responsible, adult fear is a very, very good thing.

Well, I would express it a little bit differently. I would say, that YES we do have to be aware of dangers, responsible towards dangers, and careful of not taking risk taking too far. I also think that the cult started phobias, by phobias I mean irrational, overwhelming fears, is something that should be overcome.

I truely understand that you have a lot of strong spiritual experiences, many of which are probably tied up with someone you are now facing has been abusing you and/or others, and it is hard to make sense of those experiences in the light of our new knowledge. We all have to do this, and find what our own faith through that process becomes. I deeply respect that the above mail is a picture of what you believe, and you have the right to that belief. However, it is just that, subjective experiences and beliefs. Not fact, not evidence, but subjective beliefs.

The reason why you see me contradict you is that I think there are some beliefs in there that can be inherently triggering of phobias to some people, and I see no reason to propagate that. There are after all other possible explanations. I hope you have a good weekend ESB :o).

Malene

Thanks, Malene, for throwing some logic at us to keep those sanity-saving doubts at the forefront. I, at this point, WANT to believe that "Lazaris" was just a figment of Jach and Peny's imagination (and now a figment of many other people's imaginations as well). I reassure myself that even if "they" (Lazaris spoke of himself in plural) are some entity from somewhere else, as long as I stay in direct contact with "God" (my own spirituality), even this force who might have tried to gain power over me, and who, in my naivete and spiritual search and curiosity, I allowed to touch me, "they" never really can gain that power. (At least not after I become aware that things are not exactly kosher.) And/or neither can the just plain manipulative, greedy, mind-twisting cult leaders and their entourage.

This is exatly the same stuff that happens with any friend who secretly has ulterior motives, but has put on such an ernest show that you have come to trust and love them. After years of intense friendship, one day you come to see what the real deal has been—maybe because they feel that you are weak and ripe for the pickin' or maybe they just get sloppy in their little game. Of course you feel pain and devastating feelings of betrayal, regrets that trust was mistakenly given, maybe injured self-trust at allowing yourself to be mislead and/or injured self-esteem for the slights that you glossed over in the name of "friendship", but there is no longer any danger that this jerk "friend" will eventually succeed in his/her ulterior motive. The rest of the stuff can be healed in time. You, Malene, are living proof, which is a continuous inspiration for me.

I think someone here mentioned this, but Lazaris's meditations follow the format of hypnosis. I was aware of that when I first started listening to the tapes, but didn't mind because I wanted the positive suggestions to go in on a deep level and change me for the better from within. Also, I was alone with a tape, so no one was going to lower my resistance and then suggest that I sign a contract or two. One thing that kind of still bothers me, though, are the experiences "Lazaris" called "blendings". During a "blending" there is no countdown, no effort to put the listener in an alpha state, just "Lazaris" saying (with a jolly giggle sometimes) that we are now going to blend our energy for a little while. Each listener blending his/her energy with Lazaris, in the case of an individual blending and I'm not sure if any group blendings were ever done. Anyway, after these blendings, I always felt very refreshed as though my spiritual reality had just been scrubbed down with Lemon Ajax. This was what mainly convinced me that there really was a "Lazaris" and he was good. Now, I think that maybe it was my very intense desire to have my spiritual reality scrubbed down with Lemon Ajax, despite the fact that I could not, at that time, get to a beautiful place in the woods or mountains or to a sunset on a beach or any place else where I could effortlessly feel close to "God" (my Higher Self? my Soul? Everything?).

Fear - the last ditch effort to manipulate when all else fails. The most effective fear is that which has no face, that can strike at any time. That's why The Exorcist was probably the scariest movie ever made. One can't lock the door or hide away from a non-physical presence if it chooses to invade us.

But what evidence is there that any of these people who are so un-magical that they can't even create their own reality elegantly can have any "psychic" power over us? If they had any real psychic power, they would have seen our challenges in the Forum coming and gotten rid of us before the fact.

The "blendings" consist of "Lazaris" speaking in a very calming voice and then calling people's names with very vague prose. They don't use people's last names. So if they say Bob or Mary, there's a good chance someone will think they're talking to them. If your name is Thelonious or Jezebel, it may be more than a coincidence, but they also have a list of attendees, so even that wouldn't prove anything.

If they really were to say someone's name out loud with truly personal information, it would freak people out and would be extremely invasive. That is, if they had the ability to do that.

Saying "don't try so hard" is about as vague as it gets. Most of us want to believe that we're trying too hard. What soothing advice! Oh, you're such a good person for trying so hard - it touches the martyr in all of us. I once received a letter in the mail telling me that I'm a "beyonder" - that I had special abilities that were not yet realized. The proof was that I'm a really good person and I try so hard, but somehow life hasn't always been so good to me. But for $150 I can find out how to produce the good karma I deserve[LOL}. This letter was no doubt sent to thousands of people - many of whom probably were amazed at the accurate description of their circumstances.

I've found that there is a palpable energy produced by many people gathering with good intentions, with a desire to grow, love, heal, etc. I've felt this in many group situations, including those that make no claim of "Higher Entities" being involved. I don't think it provides any evidence that "Lazaris" is any more than a contrived money-making scam.

Making a person think that an illusion is there own experience creates a deep trust in that experiance. I was once pitched by an Amway salesman who wrote out all these numbers about how much money was to be made if I developed a certain downline, sold so many products, etc. His figures showed that, if I developed my downline in such-and-such a way, I would make $50,000 the first year. Then he asked me how much I would make if I doubled that in the second year. The idea was to make me say that I would make $100,000 - that way it was my own experience. I told him to stop insulting my intelligence. C/S isn't all that clever - the methods they use are not new or unique.

These explanations about post hypnotic manipulation and vague statements during "Blendings" really help.

Perhaps it's more than ..just a bit of a mental trap to persue the question as to "Big L's" existance, semi-existance, et al -- to far.

What ever "it" is -- IMO "it" has the personal, financial, and social integrity of a business partner without the essential social conscience to speak out -- and up -- as -- IMO Peny extends her trail of human social and emotional wreckage.

******

As a footnote:
Those "group mind" group efforts at psychic attack by Werner Erhard are a matter of history and est employee / volunteer affidavit.

As to the efficacy of a coven's (or "group mind's") psychic attacking, no one can make any other believe anything: Black Magick, Voodoo, programing, Peny's "Crystal Cave" group programing sessions, etc.

And, there exist realities beyond our personal belief.

*And*, God / Love / Greater Good may indeed protect those incarnate on this earth acting upon It's behalf.

Here's to knowing and doing that Good.

Steve

It would be very helpful to you and others to pick up a copy of The Silva Mind Control Method, by Jose Silva. It's a great method and one in which you'll recognize the potential of creating your own "Crystal Cave."

Love and light,

Groovin Magi

That sounds like an excellent book for exactly this kind of information. I think that the Siva technique was mentioned a few times by others, but I just haven't gotten around to getting the book on it. Thanks for the direct push in a freeing and expansive direction.

Karolina said: Thanks, Malene, for throwing some logic at us to keep those sanity-saving doubts at the forefront.

You are very welcome, :o).

Karolina said: I reassure myself that even if "they" (Lazaris spoke of himself in plural) are some entity from somewhere else, as long as I stay in direct contact with "God" (my own spirituality), even this force who might have tried to gain power over me, and who, in my naivete and spiritual search and curiosity, I allowed to touch me, "they" never really can gain that power. (At least not after I become aware that things are not exactly kosher.) And/or neither can the just plain manipulative, greedy, mind-twisting cult leaders and their entourage.

Exactly, The one thing that I have found to be a tremendous help in reaasuring myself it will never happen again, is I now KNOW what the signs are of spiritual abuse. Which means, as long as I keep an open eye to those signs, and never forget to question, I will be able to see when or if it happens again. A few times I have caught some abusive situations happening, and I have called it loud and clear right off the bat, then I have left the situation before it got unbearable. That has given me the self confidence to say, I now know enough about the topic to see it happening, and not stand for it. It has been extremely helpful for me in overcoming some phobias that this will happen to me again. For instance I have been very phobic about group situations, but I now have that under control simply because I know what I will not put up with.

For the sake of your own healing, I can only recommend that you too go and do some research on this topic, so you have that knowledge to help you in the future.

Karolina said: The rest of the stuff can be healed in time. You, Malene, are living proof, which is a continuous inspiration for me.

Wow, thanks for the compliment. It is quite a journey off healing though... Not something that happens fast or easy...

Karolina said: I think someone here mentioned this, but Lazaris's meditations follow the format of hypnosis. I was aware of that when I first started listening to the tapes, but didn't mind because I wanted the positive suggestions to go in on a deep level and change me for the better from within.

Well, even if you saw no "negative" suggestions coming from the tapes, Jach still conditioned you to go into an alpha state while listening to his voice..... That can be a powerful conditioning.

For instance, I am on an continuing search for more information about my old group. There is very little information out there, so it is a bit painful going. A while back I found a web site about the original tradition that my group belonged to. So, I went to read up on it. On that web site there was a small sound bite file with the music that we used to go into trance to. The file took maybe around 10 seconds to play. Yet, just hearing that little 10 second bite started what I recognized immediately as the beginning of a very strong trance. Of course, I never listened to that again, nor, did I allow the trance to happen.

However, it is now almost 6 years ago I left.. and a 10 second sound bite still has that kind of effect on me.

Karolina said: Also, I was alone with a tape, so no one was going to lower my resistance and then suggest that I sign a contract or two.

There are other just as nasty things that can be done with your lowered resistance. The obvious one is that you get used to being put into a trance by the sound of this one persons voice. Which means when you go to see him in person he can suggest just about anything. He can also put in metaphorical suggestions that you might not recognize right off the bat but which will work on your subconscious. Often getting you to sign a contract is too obvious for these masters.... They wont do that until they already have your full allegiance. However, you listening to his tapes again and again in a trance state already puts a powerful hold on you.

Karolina said: no effort to put the listener in an alpha state, just "Lazaris" saying (with a jolly giggle sometimes) that we are now going to blend our energy for a little while. Each listener blending his/her energy with Lazaris, in the case of an individual blending and I'm not sure if any group blendings were ever done. Anyway, after these blendings, I always felt very refreshed as though my spiritual reality had just been scrubbed down with Lemon Ajax.

I think you had gotten used to going into a light trance while hearing Jach/Lazaris talk. I have actually taken myself going into light trance states while just talking to someone for a longer time. Sometimes I dont even recognize that is where I am at right away. Of course, I have always been ultra easy to put under ;o)... but still, it often dont take much. I also think that his suggestion that something out of the ordinary (blending energy) would happen was enough to make you take a few extra deep breaths and look for it to happen. Finally, I think you really wanted that spiritual renewal feeling that you describe. All of this together is more than plenty to describe your experience of it.

Take care Karolina :o),
Malene

Ted said: Fear - the last ditch effort to manipulate when all else fails.

Nothing *ucking last ditch about the way cult groups use fear. They use it as one of their primary ways of getting and holding us in bondage. Or atleast my group did. It takes so much effort to find exactly what the fears are, and get past them too...

Ted said: But for $150 I can find out how to produce the good karma I deserve[LOL}.

ROFL.. Yeahh.. I can see it too.

Ted said: C/S isn't all that clever - the methods they use are not new or unique.

Exactly!! which is why it is so important that we learn about those techniques so we can identify next time we might be subjected to them, and oppose their use.

ESB said: What ever "it" is -- "it" has the personal, financial, and social integrity of a cruel con artist without the essential spiritual conscience to speak out -- and up -- as Peny extends her trail of human spiritual wreckage.

Exactly, right on!! All we need to do is bring it down to earth, look at what they do, learn from how they do it so we do not become victims again, and then move on. I know it sounds much easier than it is though :o).

******

ESB said: As a footnote:
Those "group mind" group efforts at psychic attack by Werner Erhard are a matter of history and est employee/volunteer affidavit.

WOW, thats interesting. You mean that there are employees/volunteers who has sworn in a court or other such legal procedure that they used their minds to attack dissenters? I would love to read more about that, is there a web site I can check out? Where was the case brought to trial? Any documents that I can obtain and check out?

Or does these folks just speak out about it publically without it going to court, I would love to read it too if that is what it is....

ESB said: And, there exist realities beyond our personal belief.

I agree whole heartedly. I just find that my basic faith should not be tied into anything that makes me scared. But, you and I of course has very different basic outlooks in life, so we need to both take what makes the most sense to us. However, I would be very interested in seeing the information about EST using psychic techniquest to attack dissenters....

ESB said: Here's to knowing and doing that Good.

Cheers :o).

Malene

If I haven't said this already let me say it again, thank you so much for sharing your wonderful insights and thinking here. Your experience in your own personal healing and the generosity to share it has blessed me tremendously as I am sure others as well.

There's been several mentions of Silva Mind Control here. I think Katie and Ted have stated that Jach and Peny both studied this method before "channeling". Is that correct?
At any rate, I am interested in investigating what this method is for the purpose of comparison. It's very helpful in my healing to discover what I thought was unique to Lazaris isn't. I think I'll check into it.

But again, thanks so much for being a part of this growing community of thinkers and questioners!

Seeker

I found your post on the negative ego well written and your thoughts on it rang true for me.

I think one of the "convenient" things about defining the ego as something totally separate from us, except as a deliverer of info, and the negative ego as our enemy who always lies, is that once you declare someone to be in their negative ego, you dehumanize them and makes attacking that person okay.

In the Forum it's almost like marking someone with red paint or throwing the scent of death on a person - you are suddenly beseiged and under attack from all sides. Being declared you're in negative ego, especially by Peny or her closest comrades, marks you fair target and no one has to admit they're attacking a human being or take responsibility for their impact on you.

It's a negative ego they're thrashing, your negative ego, not a person, and it only seems like they're attacking you because you're in negative ego. You don't want to get hurt? Get out of your negative ego...don't you know they're all doing you a favor by making it uncomfortable to be in your negative ego so you'll leave it????

And how are you supposed to leave? By getting back in line...apologize, admit you're wrong, apologize, admit your negative impact on Peny, everyone who posted to you - individually, one by one, apologize, spell out exactly how hurtful, thoughtless, hostile, etcetera you were, apologize, thank them for setting you straight, apologize, thank them for their love and...oh, did I mention apologize?

Grovel anyone?

And Lazaris' definition of negative ego is what's used to give others in the Forum the right to rip human hearts and lives apart "for their own good."

Although, in one thread, I witnessed something bizzare. One new poster made a horrible mistake of suggesting Forum posters be more compassionate in their responses to other people. Well, immediately she got grilled by a number of angry posters. She came back to respond with one blanket apology to all, and a further explanation that it was not her intention to tell them how to do the Forum when they had so much more experience and reasserted that she just thought a little more compassion would be nicer - no offense intended.

Now, tell me, Ted and Katie, am I right, but based on your experience, in any other circumstance wouldn't that have only elicited the further ire of the Forum gang? From what I observed, your intention doesn't mean squat - it's your alleged impact on others.

What happened next was so erie. Peny posted in response, and accepted her apology with a little retort she didn't know why this person didn't consider her words first, and that was it. Anyone who knows the Forum and has witnessed the dynamics in there and the thrashings know that that kind of blanket apology with the attempt to justify your post by explaining what your intention was or wasn't, would never, never be accepted. Normally, a whole host of posters would have descended upon this person for that poor excuse of "accepting responsibility"!

But this one time, Peny said okay. And NOT ONE person came back to say that it wasn't okay and demand a greater accountability or personal apology to each poster or anything as they had done in every other situation of which I am aware of...and I've been there for years. The thread ended with no further response or comment...just dead silence.

That's when I realized the incredible power Peny has. With one post she can call off the attack. And that's also when I realized just how much responsibiilty she has for the abuse that occurs in the Forum and how much of it she actively permits and allows.

This one got lucky. But another poster on another subject got ten threads worth of butt kicking...and no amount of apology, blanket or personal, explaining, inner soul searching, nothing could save that person's hide.

Just one word...thumbs up or thumbs down, and the lions are released or detained.

It's scarey, but that's the way it is...and you never know when it's going to happen or how consistent the Forum "rules" will be enforced.

If a negative ego according to Lazaris' definition - an aspect being given more credit, more responsibility, more power than it was ever meant to have, and therefore bitter, vengeful and deceptive - ran the Forum, it would be run just like that.

You wrote, [[I found your post on the negative ego well written and your thoughts on it rang true for me]]

Thanks. I'm sure volumes can be, and have been, written about the function and dysfunction of ego. These are just some of my thoughts, which are contrary to the Lazaris Material. But while under the ether, I simply accepted their explanation as the one true way of looking at ego.

You wrote [[I think one of the "convenient" things about defining the ego as something totally separate from us, except as a deliverer of info, and the negative ego as our enemy who always lies, is that once you declare someone to be in their negative ego, you dehumanize them and makes attacking that person okay.]]

Very good point. I've heard it said on a number of occasions, "would you want the Forum to be safe for your negative ego?". Well, yes, actually, I would - even using Lazaris' definitions. Even Lazaris says that it doesn't behoove us to destroy or threaten our ego - even when/if it's negative. But of course that's a loaded question - to say you want safety for your negative ego is to suggest that you want to coddle it.

Your story of Peny accepting someone's blanket apology is interesting. First, as you said, it indicates the power that Peny has to control other posters. Secondly, a blanket and vague apology (and denial of responsibility) is exactly what Peny offered regarding her co-dependant relationship with you-know-know and the impact it had on the rest of the Forum. When I demanded a proper apology and explanation, I was accused of "kicking her while she was down". More obvious double standard - that is, obvious to any rational person not under her spell.

I don't know why this particular person "got lucky". Maybe just Peny's mood at the time, or maybe a most-favored status bought with a large helping of flattery elsewhere(?)

For Peny to suggest that someone else "consider their words first" is quite ironic. She was arguably the most careless poster ever in the Forum. Her many blanket judgments about Liberal and Democrats, her statement that I had helped bully people in the Elian Gonzalez thread, her (mis)statement that Elian's father had no contact with Elian for a long period of time, her insulting tone of voice when correcting someone else's mistakes, her projection of attitudes on myself and others in political threads, etc.

But then Peny doesn't need to be careful. The Forum is safe for her "negative ego". Her ego has pitbulls protecting it.

Seeker said: If I haven't said this already let me say it again, thank you so much for sharing your wonderful insights and thinking here.

You are very welcome, it is my pleasure actually to be able to take this personally painful experience and hopefully make it just a little bit easier for other folks going through the same.

Seeker said: Your experience in your own personal healing and the generosity to share it has blessed me tremendously as I am sure others as well.

Thank you so much for telling me this. That just made my day :o).

Seeker said: There's been several mentions of Silva Mind Control here. I think Katie and Ted have stated that Jach and Peny both studied this method before "channeling". Is that correct?

Yes, that is how I have read it too. I actually read the book way back when, before I joined my group. I think for people who are not used to meditating and doing exercises with their mind it is a good place to start. I also think there are a lot of unfounded, unproven mystical claims in that book, which should be taken with a grain of salt. But, good luck finding it. I am sure it will give you an interesting perspective into Jach's/Lazaris's techniques.

Those visualization techniques became so popular in the hay day of the new age folks, and they have a lot of good going for them. However, they are used by so many different people, and in a lot of different contexts.

Seeker said: But again, thanks so much for being a part of this growing community of thinkers and questioners!

Thanks for telling me this, and you are so very welcome. It is good to be able to do something positive with a painful experience...

Malene

The affidavits of which I speak were unfortunately given in the context of journalistic investigation of the est organization, not in civil or criminal litigation.

The San Jose Mercury news and The Pacific Sun in Marin were the two local news papers who really got the ball rolling, then 60 Munites took over and Werner wound up in the USSR, far from the clutching hands of the IRS and a now blood thursty national media.

I read about the affidavits in these local news paper's extensive multi-issue series articles including many in-depth interviews with former est employees and 'volunteers'.

For me, it comes down to this: if we can program and generate realities "out there" -- then join with others in the context of a coven, or "Crystal Cave", linking minds to synergistically increase the power of emotionally charged focusesed thought; who's to say that negativly focused activity could not have as powerful an impact.

Black Magick, Black Witchcraft, Voodoo, etc. are merely group 'programming' techniques that have been in use for thousands of years.

And Love protects.

:0)
ESB

Wow, this thread has enough food for thought to keep me writing all day and thinking for eons!

My first thought about the discussion is to state my own "dispelling" thought about the possibility that Lazaris is some force from the lower realms and that C/S might have developed some kind of power to cast evil spells or something.

No way! If they could do that, Ted and I(and how many others?) would be fried like crispy bacon. The only power they or ANYONE has over any one else is that which is given. I'm finished giving them anything except the time and attention it takes to stand up and speak up.

I have not yet read the Silva Mind Control materials, but there are some good sites which go into a bit of detail in explaining what the technique is about. Jose Silva developed these techniques from his own experience and observations of the power of the human mind. He offered his teachings as a way of empowering individuals to essentially be all we can be. It seems that Jach took the techniques and what he had learned from Silva and recrafted them into the foundation of the Lazaris materials. He basically took something that was offered in a spirit of generosity, and formatted it for personal profit through exploitation. Jose Silva never claimed to be a Master of the Universe or anything, he was as human as you and me. I think Jach figured out how much more powerful teachings like that would be if they were said to be "channeled" by some all wise and loving entity from beyond. He also learned the power of the Alpha state of consciousness, and how to use it to influence others.

This is a brief description of the Silva Method:

"A powerful program of simple, effective methods to dramatically expand the power of your mind to absorb and retrieve information. Discover how to operate at the Alpha level -- the brainwave frequency that signals the optimum level to learn new material and recall what you've learned."

A further investigation of the Silva method reveals techniques and theories almost identical to many taught by Jach. The counting down technique Jach uses is taken directly from the Silva materials, it is THE technique used to put one into Alpha State, which is taught by Silva as a means of expanding ones own abilities. Jach seems to have put on his own twist of using it to control the minds of others.

Also, if the Silva method does provide what it promises, to allow for one to dramatically increase the ability to absorb and retrieve information, the practice of this could be one explanation for Jach's incredible ability to provide hours of formatted and seemingly inspired information. Silva also states that the practice of the techniques increases psychic abilities, and this could possibly explain the sometimes uncanny ability Jach has of hitting a nail right on the head with someone.

I must say though, that in my experience, Jach ruthlessly uses many of the same techniques employed by stage "psychics" to create the illusion that "Lazaris" is aware of all and familiar with each of us personally. But, think about that. If "Lazaris" knows all, why didn't they speak up about that Tradevest scam? Why don't they provide one tiny little bit of unique and actually usable scientific information for the benefit of mankind? How could they love each of us unconditionally "forever and a day", yet allow the hateful, sadistic skewerings in the Forum and within C/S to go unaddressed?
As I have stated here before, if "Lazaris" knows and loves me and Ted, "they" knew that much of what was stated as fact about us in the Forum was not true, yet did they correct Peny? Do they EVER correct Peny when she is so often dead flat out blatently WRONG? No, and why not? because there IS NO LAZARIS. (IMHO...LOL). Beyond that, there is no power, no strength, nothing but a clever scheme to take our money and power.

Don't forget also, that Peny has had a life long interest in Madame Blavatsky, the woman who introduced the concept of channeling wise entities to the world. The interesting story about Blavatsky is that she had gained fame and glory by claiming to channel some dead aunt of hers, and after so many years, the dead aunt turns up alive. Not to be undone, Blavatsky then begins to channel non-physical entities which have never been alive on this earth, thereby protecting herself from any future embarrassing incidents.

Prior to Blavatsky's introduction of these untraceable entities, the world of psychics or spiritualists as they called themselves was reliant upon calling up the spirits of the dead. Blavatsky went them one better and set herself up as the grand whazoo of the psychic set.

Upon examination, this alleged "wise woman" and "mother of the new-age" had a life which was rife with fraud and she too left a trail of human wreckage in her path of self-promotion. I have a book written by Krishnamurti, who as a young boy was taken from his Indian village and the influence of his family, declared an "incarnation of God" or something, and brought to the US where he and his family were ruthlessly exploited by Blavatsky and her odd partner Colonel Henry Olcott.

Interestingly, after Krishnamurti broke from Blavatsky and Olcott's Theosophy Society, he formed his own organization in Ojai California where he lived and taught until his death in 1986. Throughout his lifetime, Krishnamurti insisted that he wanted no followers. One of his quotes: "To follow another is evil," he said, "it does not matter who it is."

Another quote of his in response to being asked "who" he was: "These questions are not of very great importance, what is important is the fact that you obey and allow your judgement to be perverted by authority. Your judgement, your mind, your affections are being perverted by things which have no value, and herein lies the sorrow".

The Society for Psychical Research (London) appointed a special committee to investigate Madame Blavatsky’s claims. The S.P.R. committee in its final report of December, 1885, branded Madame Blavatsky "one of the most accomplished, ingenious and interesting impostors in history."

Also interesting is the fact that it is difficult to find in either's biographical information on the internet, mention of the other.

It is of great interest to me to know the backgrounds and influences of Jach and Peny in my quest to understand the "hows and whys" of the "Lazaris" phenomena.

I believe that a lifetime study of the occult or metaphysics and mind control along with the get rich quick mentality of the more recent new age movement inspired Jach to begin his grand experiment of channeling Lazaris. He was certainly not, as he claims, just a bumbling insurance salesman with only a passing interest in meditation. He did study extensively.

One correspondent of ours who has had a bit of an insiders view of C/S has stated their observation that it seems that Jach and Peny study up on the latest crazes within the new age movement and then provide seminars on the topic.

I'll go one better and say that like any good marketers, they test the waters, see which new concept generates enough interest to sell seminars and tapes, and that is where the attention is devoted. As I've noted in my ebay sales of the Shame tape series, the first tape was named "Ending Shame". When we attended that (heavily attended)seminar and bought that tape, we were never told that there was more Ending to do. The original information and techniques were offered as THE way to END shame, yet we then get 3 more tapes on the topic. Let's face it, the tapes sold well, so they kept coming.

So, no, let's not give these people credit for having any special powers or abilities.
They are clever opportunists and self-promoters, from my observations.

And beyond that, let's not support any beliefs that there are those who are more powerful or skilled than the rest of us. That is a conditioned belief from the Lazaris materials. No matter how much Lazaris tells us about our personal and individual power, the subtle and not so subtle message from the very beginning is that we need HELP, and that is why "they" are here. Beyond that, they are also here to be close to that "light of lights" Peny, hence setting her up with the biggest and baddest of all Better Than reasons that we should hold her in awe.

Think about it, this is all a scam for wealth, power, and the edification of Peny's vast, enormous, huge, insatiable EGO.

These are the last people on earth who I'm going to allow to strike fear or doubt in my heart.

More thoughts later,

ESB said: The affidavits of which I speak were unfortunately given in the context of journalistic investigation of the est cult, not in civil or criminal litigation.

Ok, thanks for clarifying that :o).

ESB said: The San Jose Mercury news and The Pacific Sun in Marin were the two local news papers who really got the ball rolling

Ohh, cool, I should be able to find some of those articles then, maybe even online :o). I would love to read them.

ESB said: I read about the affidavits in these local news paper's extensive multi-issue series articles including many in-depth interviews with former est employees and 'volunteers'.

I know EST has a lot on their conscience. In fact, Werner Erhard used to have strong ties to Scientology, and took a lot of learning from Scientology before he split away from them. Those two groups have a lot in common. It is good that former members, employees and volunteers now step up and speak out.

There is a ton of information about that group on this site:
http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/est/est.htm

Although nothing about them using psychic means to harm dissenters.

ESB said: For me, it comes down to this: if we can program and generate realities "out there" -- then join with others in the context of a coven, or "Crystal Cave", linking minds to synergistically increase the power of emotionally charged focusesed thought; who's to say that negativly focused activity could not have as powerful an impact.

Actually, I agree with you. I believe that not only can it be done, it is probably happening at times. However, I also have a basic belief that while a lot of people cause harm and pain to others out of lack of knowledge, or misguided beliefs, or emotions running rampant so they do something in the heat of the moment, very few people would actually get together with the expressed conscious motive to cause that kind of damage.

Anyways, that is a personal belief, and maybe I am still being naive, who knows :o).

An example would be your own Concept: Synergy. Maybe Peny and Jach knows what they are doing is wrong. Maybe they are actually delusional enough to believe their own lies. In any way, I am pretty sure that their minions, whom I have heard called the Orlando Gang is just as much under Peny and Jach's influence as any of you have ever been. Probably more so. Which means, they are deluded into thinking they are doing the right thing, while all being hurt in exactly the same way again, and again, and probably to much more extreme degree.

In this case there is most likely only two people who might know what they are doing is wrong and causes harm. While that has a huge impact on others, it is a far cry from the nightmarish, fearful picture of a coven coming together to perform evil magics that hurt as many as possible.

I do think it would be a good idea to look in detail at what it is we think happened with such situations of alleged psychic actions taken to hurt others. Make some detailed notes at what we think happened, who did it, how it happened, and what the end result was. Then do some research and check wether or not what we think happened actually fits the facts. So often I find this kind of fear is continued simply because people have a shadowy half way idea of what might have happened, which is mixed up with fears of "satanism" and other such things, and then all of a sudden the imagination runs wild... So, lets just take a look at the details, and I think we would find, it just aint that bad.

ESB said: Black Magick, Black Witchcraft, Voodoo, etc. are merely group 'programming' techniques that have been in use for thousands of years.

Well, let me just make an observation as someone who was raised in a different culture. There is a social fear/phobia running rampant within the US of witch craft or other pagan faiths.

The pagan's and witches I have had the pleasure of knowing does not get together in covens to harm others. They get together to worship God through nature. In fact, I believe that witch craft and paganery might just be the one faith that I could get really deeply involved with again.

ESB said: And Love protects.

Ahh, the good old Love protects. Personally I have a huge problem with that statement. The Love I had for God made me look for a setting in which to express it, sure didnt protect me from a cult. Nor did the Love I had for my fellow cult members, or the Love and desire I had for helping others. The Love I still feel towards the people who are still stuck in my old cult, who is still so close to my heart, whom I miss, and whom I still cry for because I know the pain of being part of that group, that love didnt protect me either.

My parents Love didnt protect me from their mistakes, nor from my own mistakes. So what does Love Protects mean? If I experience Love didnt protect me, does that mean my Love wasnt good enough? I have a hard time swallowing that statement. Or atleast I would need a little more qualification of what you mean by it.

I think learning from our own mistakes protects us, I think we can learn to protect ourselves from various things in life. I think having a faith can often times help us more than we are even aware of ourselves, but, I dont think it "saves" us from the pains in life. I think there is an awful lot of pain, accidents and mishaps which is part and partial to being alive, and I dont think there are any easy ways of avoiding that. Both the beauty, ecstacy, and sometimes pain is just part of being alive.....

I think we need to allow for, and make room for the sometimes painful facts of life which we sometimes have to deal with, as much as we have to make room for the miracles of life. Sometimes the pains we experience carry with them hidden blessings, blessings we might not have without the pain.

Of course, this is all just my own opinions, things I have come to during the times of heavy discernment after leaving my cult.

Take care,
Malene

You say "For me, it comes down to this: if we can program and generate realities "out there" -- then join with others in the context of a coven, or "Crystal Cave", linking minds to synergistically increase the power of emotionally charged focusesed thought; who's to say that negativly focused activity could not have as powerful an impact.

Black Magick, Black Witchcraft, Voodoo, etc. are merely group 'programming' techniques that have been in use for thousands of years."

Can we program and generate realities "out there" as we have been taught by Lazaris? Do Black Magick, witchcraft, voodoo, etc actually work?

I have my doubts that any of these techniques have the force that is attributed to them. Teaching techniques for reality creation is a good way to win friends, influence people, and make a few bucks in the process, but I'm totally rethinking the whole concept.

I do absolutely believe that we create our own realities, but is it possible for someone to wrap up the process in a neat little package all tied up with an expensive bow, or stuck through with a voodoo needle?

Since we are all incredibly unique and complex entities in our own right, I am now disputing the ability of anyone to teach anyone else how to navigate through life.

Spirituality is a deeply personal relationship with God/Goddess, the Universe, whatever we call it. Who can actually claim of deign to identify the exact process any one of us might go through to attain that relationship? Trying to do so is about as useful as all those self-help relationship relationship books out there. They are a dime a dozen and full of advise just as valuable. Just as no one can write a book which addresses the complexity and uniqueness of any given loving relationship between two people, so can no one provide techniques which can even come close to even explaining the relationship between our souls and The Divine.

This is why through all this questioning and rethinking, I find myself returning again to the good old fashioned meditation techniques offered by the Masters.

Meditation is totally personal. It too has been offered with instruction manuals and price tags, but true meditation is a simple quieting of the mind for the purpose of inner reflection and passive receptivity. In that state, we do the personal private work, and establish the true and personal link to the wisdom and understanding uniquely appropriate to each of us in the moment.

So, from my current place of belief, the thought that some nasty critters could somehow manage to tackle and corral the energies of the universe to send out bad spells and actually cause someone physical harm is totally inconsistant with my understanding of those energies.

Certainly people can ick us up with their bad energies if we let them, we can even allow ourselves to get sick, even die if we open and allow sickening energies. But, why bother?

We don't have to grid up our crystals and do a voodoo dance to protect ourselves. We are naturally protected by a loving Universe. All we need do to lose that protection is ignore it. It's like we're being attacked in battle and don't bother to seek the shelter of the impenetrable fortress that's standing right behind us. If we make ourselves targets, then those who are shooting the arrows have an easy mark.

I believe that there is an impenetrable fortress, that is the Love of the Universe, the arms of the Divine, however we choose to personify it. All we need to is get our butts into it, and know that there is no clerk behind a desk wanting to see our credit card before we can enter.

Also, the only map to that fortress is written in our own individual hearts, and cannot be sold to us like some cheap map to the homes of the rich and famous. It isn't a product, it is a gift.

No, those who claim to have powers over us, or those of us who invest in the powers of others over us are equally misguided in my opinion.

As far as group synergy goes, oh yes, I do believe in that, absolutely. There is something powerful and profound about group focus. But what is the focus? When we focus together and call upon the Love of the Universe, surely it will respond and provide its nourishment and clarity.

But, when we call upon the negative forces which exist only within ourselves, and are of our own creation, what do we invoke, and what impact can it have other than to cause our little group to eventually implode?

Love is eternal, ever expanding the force of creation, hatred is a temporary state of ignorance which by right of its destructive
nature, must eventually self-destruct. Like a raging fire, it must be fed. No one is forced or compelled to feed it, but anyone of us at any time can pull out our trusty bucket of water and drown it. Even if we don't it will eventually burn itself out. It's up to us how much damage we allow it to do before it gets too close.

Let those who start fires self-immolate, I'll keep my firewalls up and keep my big red inner fire engine well maintained.

Please, good friends, as we navigate through this life, let us do it with NO FEAR.

Katie

Cool and deep thoughts, I must say. :0)

Katie, you have expressed my thoughts about "Love protects.", exactly. I should have emphasized that capital "L" a bit more I think.

As far as Paganism, yes. There is White Witchcraft, and there is Black. Melane, I absolutly appreciate the beauty and power of the former.. and in the case of Voodoo, etc. Hey, if we are open through a direct link of felt guilt, or "owed" reciprocity to the attacking party; I am not *at all* prepared to say it lacks impact and power.

What I am convinced of, however is that Love protects.

An interesting forinstance...

I was making truth-telling email sport a few months back out of an absolutly socially, sexually, and spiritually manipulative / castrating yoga instructor that I became aware of through ...unfortunate chance meeting.

Both Big Love and the wiser Me knew this was backfire territory, as my directed criticism was brutally honest and therefore caustic enough to only dig the pheromone squirting s.o.b. deeper into his behavioral denial.

So, 3:00am that very week I am awakened by his guru, in astral body come to hastle and scare the hell out of me. Hey -- it worked. No more over-cooking behaviorally evil spiritual scumbags for me, no sir.

Point is, though I always ask for and gratefully receive Love's protection; I needed my Scorpio-rising school yard bully ass kicked. Shall we call it dicipline for one 38 year old grown up? Uh, yeah.

Do you think Love is going to stand in the way of that? Hell no.

ESB said: Katie, you have expressed my thoughts about "Love protects.", exactly. I should have emphasized that capital "L" a bit more I think.

Hmm.. Well, I am still confused what you mean by Love Protects. I guess because my experience is that Love didnt protect me from a whole number of things. Further more I am not ready to accept the explanation for that, here that either I didnt Love cleanly enough, or that there was something inside of me that "rejected" Love. When I remember the 19 year old who joined a destructive group I actually remember a very strong kid, with a strong sense of direction, with strong dreams, and with one heck of a lot of ability to Love. Thusly the those two explanations I have seen from New Age circles, and I am just not swallowing that any more. The simple, but, hard answer that comes from me is, Love didnt protect me for some reason. Neither did God. Life just aint that simple. Neither God, nor Love, nor any power in the world will protect us from the beauty, ecstacy and pain of life. That is a hard answer to swallow, but, it is the only answer that makes any sense to me. Accidents happen, why doesnt Love protect us from crime, from violence, from natural disasters?

ESB said: Melane, I absolutly appreciate the beauty and power of the former..

Hey Come On Dude. You keep misspelling my name...

ESB said: and in the case of Voodoo, etc. Hey, if we are open through a direct link of felt guilt, or "owed" reciprocity to the attacking party; I am not *at all* prepared to say it lacks impact and power.

Actually, I never said it lacked impact or power. I called for us to examine the fear of voodoo and black magic in detail so we can find out what it is we think is happening with that. How we think it works, what impact it has, how we think we can protect ourselves. I also called into question whether or not this is actually something that happens as much and as widespread as some people seems to think.

Again, I am not really ready to accept the answer, that black magic works because we have "wholes" in our psyche that needs to be repaired. If God or Love really is that strong then it will work no matter which emotional struggles we carry with us in life. Why would God, or Love further punish us if we have emotional bagage which we carry with us? Further more dont we all have issues of different kinds, so, that is an arguement which can always be used when it doesnt work the way doctrine says it should work. I think God, or Love would go and be double protective of us if it was the case that we have emotional issues of different kinds....

ESB said: What I am convinced of, however is that Love protects.

And, I still find myself wondering, what on earth do you mean by that? And in the instances when Love didnt protect us from some kind of harm, how come it failed?

ESB said: Both Big Love and the wiser Me knew this was backfire territory,

Let me just get something clarified here. Do you think there is a Wiser vs. More egotistical you? Do you divide that up in parts of yourself? Does either part of you have power at different times? Do you think the more egotistical you should be fought as not being as good or knowing or whatever as the Wiser you?

If I am touching correctly on some of your beliefs, where did those beliefs start? Do you think any of those beliefs at any time has been manipulated by Lazaris/Jach or others?

ESB said: So, 3:00am that very week I am awakened by his guru, in astral body come to hastle and scare the hell out of me. Hey -- it worked.

How come Love didnt protect you from that? What kind of impact did that actually have on you, except maybe a little less sleep than normal? What kind of impact do you expect it could have had? Why did it scare you? What was your exact fear related to that experience?

While, I understand things like this are all deeply personal experiences, is there any chance that this was but a dream? Or something you got yourself hypnotized into believing actually happened?

How come you so easily accept this experience as being a attack from a master of the black arts? Are there other possible explanations?

ESB said: Point is, though I always ask for and gratefully receive Love's protection; I needed my Scorpio-rising school yard bully ass kicked. Shall we call it dicipline for one 38 year old grown up? Uh, yeah.

Why do you think you needed your ass kicked?

ESB said: Do you think Love is going to stand in the way of that? Hell no.

Well, if Love is supposed to protect us, then it should stand in the way right? If not, why talk about Love as protection? Unless you had evil intentions, I see no reason why the protection of Love shouldnt apply. And, if you experience that Love didnt protect you, then, it might be necessary to revise your belief in Love as a protector.

ESB, please understand that I do not mean to be disrespectful to your personal beliefs. I have been out of my group close to 6 years now, and since I lived with them for several years, and consequently was under the influence of daily punishments, mind control, and trauma it has been a gigantic roller coaster for me.

Every single belief I have ever had, every single mystical experience I have ever had, and every single thing that has to do with faith and religion has been, and are up for evaluation constantly. I can no longer take anything for granted when it comes to faith. I can no longer just blindly believe anything. I am convinced that it is only by questioning all my beliefs, and experiences I can stay safe from something like that to happen again.

I am determined to be a questioning voice in all the fields of belief out there. Simply because questioning sets us free.

Questioning sets us free to protect ourselves, when we know exactly what we are afraid of.

Questioning sets us free to find out exactly what we believe and why.

Questioning sets us free from fake profets.

Questioning sets us free to find our own inherent strengths.

Questioning sets us free to truely trust ourselves and the world around us.

Questioning sets us free to change our opinions, or modify our direction as needed.

This is why I question.

Malene

Interesting conversation about protection and Love. Malene, I like your Questioning, and I agree with you that it's of utmost importance. The newest bumper stickers now say "Question Everything", not just authority or reality[g].

As for whether Love protects - I think we may need to be a bit more specific. Firstly, if Love protects, it doesn't mean that it protects absolutely. Locks protect, but they can be picked. Police protect, if they're present and not outgunned. The statement "Love protects" can be true, even though there are countless times when it doesn't succeed completely.

But more than Love, I think a sense of Value protects. I know "Lazaris" talks about Value in that context, but I believe it anyway[g]. I've seen it work many times in my own life - not absolutely. When we value ourselves, we take the precautions necessary to protect ourselves. So we can see how it works on a physical level.

I think Value also works on a psychological level. Studies have been done where convicts are shown videotapes of people walking down the street. They were asked which people they would be most likely to mug. Most gave the same answers. They would attack people whose demeanor and/or body-language indicated timidity and lack of assurance.

Value works in negotiations. If a person truly values what they have to offer, they come out much better in the negotiations.

I believe Value also works on subtler levels, read meta-physical. "I value myself enough to not allow such-and-such to happen to me" is a strong deterrent to disaster, even if not voiced aloud.

It's our sense of Value that causes us to refuse to be manipulated and intimidated by cult-leaders. It's Value that tells us that nobody is more important than us. Yes, "Lazaris" talked about it, but, as with so much of the rhetoric, it is often ignored when it comes to the Gang and people's relationships to the Gang.

I'm much too valuable to let those schmucks in Orlando have any significant power over me, and that includes whatever "Black Magic" they can come up with. And the work we're doing here is too valuable to allow it to be sabotaged.

Love, capital "L" protects us when, first we ask it to and second, when we are acting within responsibility IMO.

Getting ones ass kicked by reality, without being hurt mind you -- can be a very good thing. It was for me, waking (not a dream mind you -- I was indeed awake) to encounter an evil son-of-a-bitch like that yoga guru in my very private bedroom.

The lesson? As with all object lessons about one's relationship with the world at large, it was about what to and what not to do -- better -- in the future. Never again will I frontally assault a damage-doing "spiritual teacher" with that much bald honesty... frankly, I totally underestimated the powerful "friend" this yoga instructor had in his Hindu guru.

Malene, you are free to believe as you will; I can only share my personal experience. Is my belief in a higher self implanted only by this Jach/Lazaris? Sorry, no. I have had a working relationship with a wiser voice, call it conscience(?), in my head as long as I can remember. I think we all have. It's just when we stop listening to that wiser voice that we look to suck up to some incarnate social parasite shucking and jiving spiritual "authoritah" (thank you Eric Cartman...).

Financial guru Bob Brinker is another late example. Bob told everyone to buy the Nasdaq 100 on October 18th -- just before the greatest drop in all it's history. And Bob Brinker is one of ABC Radio's HOTTEST national talk show host properties.

It's time to grow up and stop following the next "master" at xyz complication -- with an authoritative voice portending to have our best interests at heart -- as they eye our wallet -- or perpetual adoration and mass attention.

And. The danger in questioning everything
too far is that we end up living in our heads -- disconected from a "mysterious" world always at intelects length. IMO -- Lazaris quoted a great spiritual gem to sell to us high mark up when he said that: "(Self trust is mental, emotional, intuitive.. even physical -- all together)".

Wall off in your "mind" and life loses passion, aliveness, and emotional intensity and you become spineless fodder for those who dominate.

Remember: the Chinese army invaded and geopolitically erased -- militarily self-disabled -- by *national phylosophical choice*: "non-violent", live-in-your-head "admirably spiritual" Tibet.

Steve

I don't mean to interrupt your conversation with Malene, but I have a few things that I would like to ask you. And a few things that I would like to point out to you.

First of all your experience with the guru in your bedroom. Is this guru still alive or dead? I'm asking because I've had two instances since August of waking up, knowing that someone is there, wondering with fear if it's a burglar, sitting up and reaching my arm out into the darkness and then having someone taking my hand, making themselves seen as someone that I know and love who is in a different part of the country and them pull me toward them and embracing me. I melt into the embrace with absolute joy, not caring how they got there and let myself be overwhelmed with pure love and devotion. And then I "wake up", but not where I normally sleep—I am where I had sat and embraced my "visitor." The first time that this happened, upon "awakening" I, very frightened, immediately got on the phone to find out if this person had died and stopped in to "say good-bye." Nope. They were asleep and had no memory of astrally projecting themselves into my house. The second time was a bit different—when I reacted with some defensiveness, they disappeared.

One of my points here being—who knows what these things are? Are they really the people that they look like? Are they somebody else floating around and taking on a form that will produce the reaction that they want? Are they hallucinations? Or are they manifestations of our own needs—you needed to have your ass kicked that day, I needed to feel loved those days? Who really knows. But I think its good to even here be questioning—what if it was the second possibility? And what if, in your case, your reaction of fear and consequent letting up on the criticism will allow a creep to keep abusing unprotected people?

I can certainly understand Malene's need to question everything. As young women, those of us who wanted to help make the world a place of safety, love, acceptance and joy for everybody, soon found that our ideals and our own loving natures made us prey to the parasites who use others to empower themselves. How many times, when I felt the pain of my trust being abused, was I told that I had very little self-esteem to allow myself to get into a situation like this one or that one. Bullshit. I had plenty of self-esteem, just very little in the honest "mutual support" department, and lots in the "love will protect me" department. I used to be amazed at how much I could effortlessly accomplish when I was feeling love, and how I became paralyzed when I felt any other emotion. To love seemed like the absolutely right thing to do. The natural thing to do, and when anyone did anything else, it seemed to me that they had been too damaged to allow themselves to love. So even creeps received compassion from me. And being experts at turning everything possible around to their benefit, they used attention and time from me to empower them, with no interest on their part to heal their "damage" and bring real love into their lives. And I lost time and...trust again.

So then what logically happens? You start thinking "Okay. Love truly IS the real power, but I am not using it correctly. I need to learn how to use it where I don't get drained. Maybe I need to get stronger. Be in an environment where my need to love is understood, appreciated and not abused." This is where a "teacher" often shows up. This is where we become ripe for the REAL pickin'. This is where we commit to this "teacher," sometimes in the form of a significant other or mentor or "friend", who we admire for their ability to accomplish things, even when the world is not a bed of roses. Generally, from my observation, this "teacher" is an astute, self-serving jerk, with no sense of empathy and narcissistic, sociopathic personality leanings. And can see that the devotion of one so idealistic and apparently "NAIVE" would, one way or another, be a nice beneficial feather in the top-quality cap.

Well, when you eventually get off of THAT amusement park ride, you want to make damn sure that never, NEVER again will you be riding any evil merry-go-rounds. And if its at the expense of never again letting yourself trust "love"—well, so be it. Until proven innocent, everything is now guilty. NO knowledge is NO power, and NO power could end up being a huge drag.

Even from an apparition at 3AM.

Sorry this got so long. I have a little more to say, but will wait a bit.

>>And. The danger in questioning everything too far is that we end up living in our heads -- disconnected from a "mysterious" world always at intellects length. Lazaris stole a great gem to sell to us high mark up when he parroted that: self trust is mental, emotional, intuitive, even physical -- all together.

Wall off in your "mind" and life looses passion, aliveness, and emotional intensity and you become spineless fodder for those who dominate. The Chinese army invading militarily self castrated "non-violent" Tibet and Peny's favorite mind-afternoon Forum snack.<<

I don't really understand what you are trying to say here. I don't know if you are still getting the Lazaris tapes, but isn't this the "year of mystery," or are you getting this from somewhere else? Isn't the point of being a healthy human being that you have unbridled curiosity, and anything mysterious enough is going to tug at your intellect? Isn't that what makes us grow and evolve? And isn't the intrigue that comes with something mysterious, what is often used as a trap to control others?

Yes, self-trust is mental, emotional, intuitive, and physical. But what if someone is in a place where they feel too vulnerable, their resonance too low, their self-trust shattered? Do they then become the bottom of the food chain? Do they have to become prey for the aforementioned "teacher" or, as you put it, "the next idiot with an authoritative voice who portends to have our best interests at heart?"

Um. No. Because I personally believe there is, as you call It (or Him or Her) "Love." And It keeps beings in Its resonance, in Its protection JUST FOR THE ASKING. Animals (adorable as they are) have to stay in food chain mode, because—they can't ask yet.

And the problem for many people, which makes them "fodder for those who dominate" is not "walling off in their minds" it is confusing "love" with "Love." It is not asking to be in "Love's" resonance, in "Love's" protection, but, instead, investing all of their energy, hope and time in "love." This is a dead end, and eventually you have to turn around and find your way back to the real path of "Love." Magic and empowerment can be found in abundance only on the path of Love. I don't believe it can be found on the path of love.

One other thing—I don't understand what you mean by "militarily self castrated 'non-violent' Tibet" being walled off in their mind. I think if anything, Tibet is a totally spiritually oriented nation, focused on the mysteries and not on questioning anything. I am interested in understanding what you are trying to say, because Tibet holds a special place in my heart.