There is feminine love and there is masculine love. Ideally, we each should carry a perfect 50/50 balance to give.

Tibet is a sad case in point. For hundreds of years they were the most blood thirsty warrior culture in all Asia. Then, they got national "spiritual" guilt for going too far with masculine power and... let it lapse.

To an out-of-balance world that, comercially values masculine expression over feminine -- and, spiritually values feminine expression over masculine; Tibet looks quite evolved.

Not so.

They are, in fact a people running from their own historical self de-masculinization.

Yes, they attempted to loan themselves out to militarilly-surpassing neighbor nations as spiritual "rabbits feet" -- blessing priests, etc. Unfortunately -- when lust for land and resources overcame China's fascination with Tibetan "spiritual" human rabbit's feet -- splat!

The lesson? Being an overly feminine person -- therby "trying" to be spiritual ain't "It". One either keeps their inborn ability to at one instant -- either: kick serious interpersonal ass -- or: offer great kindness -- OR: one is not in fact in touch with a spirituality that works in the Real human social world -- on Planet Earth, present time.

"New Age" -- and traditional -- dogma-ordained behavioral self-castration -- is epidemic: and an age-old source of incredible human agony.

It appears we must taking balanced personal responsibility before capital L, Love's help asked for -- can be fully received. We do have a 100% free choice to pretend, man or woman that we have no testosterone -- until we are forced to discover it -- and get back into Real world-as-it-REALLY-is human interactive balance.

Mountain monistaries -- actual or allegorical -- may, after all -- be built for hiding platitude slinging social cowards.

And they -- fortunately have a tendency to be crushed by invading armies.

ESB

The ability and power to outwardly extend one's awareness into an encountered situation - and make accurate assesment is, indeed (IMO) as you suggest: a function of personal strength - feminine awareness carried outward with masculine assertive.

How did I know it was the soul sucking s.o.b. for perfect, double blind sure? Screw perfection! -- that's the nature of self-trust. You try to do it perfect and there is nothing to trust, no awareness to intuitively grasp.

I compiled recent events, his very clear physical... and emotional :0\\ appearance in my bedroom, and actions tward me, taken... and it did not take an expert P.I. to get the bodyguard social dynamic at work.

Will I spend any more effort on the idiotic yoga starlet? No need. Gotta figure he is far to unsophisticated to do any real, 'Peny-level' soul damage.

And, in the process of being slimmed out of their self-defense, folks will value it far more when they wake up, at last and say: No.

The yoga dweeb is merely serving as a mechanism to show them how little value they have been conditioned -- by home, school, and society -- to place on their own social backbone.

The ability and power to outwardly extend one's awareness into an encountered situation - and make accurate assesment is, indeed (IMO) as you suggest: a function of personal strength - feminine awareness carried outward with masculine assertive.

How did I know it was the soul sucking s.o.b. for perfect, double blind sure? Screw perfection! -- that's the nature of self-trust. You try to do it perfect and there is nothing to trust, no awareness to intuitively grasp.

I compiled recent events, his very clear physical... and emotional :0\\ appearance in my bedroom, and actions tward me, taken... and it did not take an expert P.I. to get the bodyguard social dynamic at work.

Will I spend any more effort on the idiotic yoga starlet? No need. Gotta figure he is far to unsophisticated to do any real, 'Peny-level' soul damage.

And, in the process of being slimmed out of their self-defense, folks will value it far more when they wake up, at last and say: No.

The yoga dweeb is merely serving as a mechanism to show them how little value they have been conditioned -- by home, school, and society -- to place on their own social backbone.

ESB said: Love, capital "L" protects us when, first we ask it to and second, when we are acting within responsibility IMO.

Again, I have to ask, what do you mean when you say "acting within responsibility? How does "acting within responsibility" show itself? What should you do when you act within responsibility, and what shouldnt you do? I am just trying to get a clear picture of what you mean, as I think this is the only way we can truely communicate. Whenever I try to get qualifications out of you all I hear are empty buzz words that you cant really explain when questioned. I dont respond well to buzz words.

ESB said: Getting ones ass kicked by reality, without being hurt mind you -- can be a very good thing. It was for me, waking (not a dream mind you -- I was indeed awake) to encounter an evil son-of-a-bitch like that yoga guru in my very private bedroom.

Ok, it seems to me that you feel you needed that experience for some reason. As for this not being a dream. I have myself had several experiences with spirits when I was awake. I just still dont think that all those experiences are what they seem to be at the time. I think some of them was my subconscious playing a trick on me... but that is of course my personal interpretation.

ESB said: Never again will I frontally assault a damage-doing "spiritual teacher" with that much bald honesty... frankly, I totally underestimated the powerful "friend" this yoga instructor had in his Hindu guru.

Interesting! In my opinion the best thing we can do is to confront spiritually abusive people up front. They need to be stopped whatever the means used to stop them... I think God does condone us trying to stop spiritual abuse....Although I would never try to use physic ways of doing this, as I think it is much more effective to speak out and call it as I see it.

ESB said: Malene, you are free to believe as you will; I can only share my personal experience.

Well Geez, thanks! I am grateful!

ESB said: Is my belief in a higher self implanted only by this Jach/Lazaris? Sorry, no. I have had a working relationship with a wiser voice, call it conscience(?), in my head as long as I can remember.

I am glad to see that you have taken the time to discern for yourself what you think the higer self is.

ESB said: I think we all have.

Please dont speak for me! I am perfectly cabable of speaking for myself.

ESB said: It's time to grow up and stop following the next idiot with an authoritative voice portending to have our best interests at heart -- as they eye our wallet -- or perpetual, on-high worship and attention.

ESB said: I couldnt agree more with you when you say we have to stop following leaders. Although I dont think it necessarily has to do with "growing up". We can all be taken for a ride..... Given the right circumstances. Supposedly you were taken for such a ride once yourself. But, learning to question will go very far in protecting ourselves.

ESB said: The danger in questioning everything
too far is that we end up living in our heads -- disconected from a "mysterious" world always at intelects length.

I strongly disagree. True spirituality can withstand the challenge of questioning. So can truely spiritual people. They wont feel threatened by a questioning voice, rather they will most likely feel invigorated. If we dont question, our faith will become shallow, unable to withstand any challenges, and based only on buzz words. It seems to me, that having read part of your story already, you most have faced the painful reality yourself that some of your spiritual beliefs which you were once very convinced off just might not be so anyways... Is it possible that you can be wrong about other things too?

ESB said: Wall off in your "mind" and life looses passion, aliveness, and emotional intensity and you become spineless fodder for those who dominate.

How dare you judge my journey and spirituality like this??? What do you know about my passions, aliveness and emotional intensity? You dont know anything about me, or my relationship to God. Is this how you react from having your buzzwords questioned?

ESB said: The Chinese army invading militarily self castrated "non-violent" Tibet and Peny's favorite mind-afternoon Forum snack.

Peny can try to make a mind-afternoon snack out of me if she pleases. I will be happy to take her on. I doubt she would have the guts to take me on in real life though... She would most likely only do so through the faceless media of the internet as the coward she seems to be. I do NOT accept spiritual abuse in any form any more. The next person who tries to hurt me in my spirituality in person will have a physical fight on their hands, and if they try to use the internet to judge my spirituality I will answer back in kind.

Karolina said: One of my points here being—who knows what these things are?

Karolina, Exactly my point. It might be a mystical / spiritual experience. It might be that for you personally. But, we can never be completely cock sure of ourselves with things like this, and therefore there should be a certain openness to other possible explanations, and certainly an openness to it being questioned.

Karolina said: How many times, when I felt the pain of my trust being abused, was I told that I had very little self-esteem to allow myself to get into a situation like this one or that one. Bullshit. I had plenty of self-esteem, just very little in the honest "mutual support" department, and lots in the "love will protect me" department.

Again, exactly. I am so sick of the "blame the victim" mentality. "Battered women stay in an abusive situation only because they enjoy it, people who loves jerks are co-dependent, and the real new age quirker I have heard is people who go through unspeakable crimes, rape, being a political prisoner, or natural disasters somehow created that reality for themselves"... it is what they need to learn from. It is unbelievable to see how easy it is to depersonalize other peoples suffering like that. We do need to take responsibility for our own lives, what we do with it, and the mistakes we make. We also have to stop pointing our collective society fingers at people who go through painful times.

Karolina said: To love seemed like the absolutely right thing to do. The natural thing to do, and when anyone did anything else, it seemed to me that they had been too damaged to allow themselves to love. So even creeps received compassion from me.

Exactly the way I experienced it. Thanks for expressing it so perfectly.

Karolina said: And I lost time and...trust again.

And in my experience to add to that when the "blame the victim" mentality sets in, then the fingers are pointed at us for not being strong enough, and to choose to love the wrong people. Or to love too much. This blame the victim mentality is enough, and it has to stop, I am just not taking that crap no more. There is nothing wrong with my ability to Love.. quite on the contrary.

Karolina said: Be in an environment where my need to love is understood, appreciated and not abused." This is where a "teacher" often shows up. This is where we become ripe for the REAL pickin'. This is where we commit to this "teacher," sometimes in the form of a significant other or mentor or "friend", who we admire for their ability to accomplish things, even when the world is not a bed of roses. Generally, from my observation, this "teacher" is an astute, self-serving jerk, with no sense of empathy and narcissistic, sociopathic personality leanings. And can see that the devotion of one so idealistic and apparently "NAIVE" would, one way or another, be a nice beneficial feather in the top-quality cap.

This is where I disagree with you. It was not because of weakness we were ripe for the picking. It was because we refused to compromise our love, and our ideals. It is because we looked for people whom we thought had as strong beliefs, ideals, and love. There is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with having the power of faith. There is nothing wrong with a human who is able to love that much. The love we felt for the creeps is not less, or wrong, or showing us as weak. It is a love which is as pure as any other love. We just didnt know how to protect ourselves through that love... That is all. And since we thought that the love itself would protect us we didnt even try.

Karolina said: Well, when you eventually get off of THAT amusement park ride, you want to make damn sure that never, NEVER again will you be riding any evil merry-go-rounds. And if its at the expense of never again letting yourself trust "love"—well, so be it. Until proven innocent, everything is now guilty. NO knowledge is NO power, and NO power could end up being a huge drag.

Well, yes, that is a place to be in, with yourself for a while. It doesnt have to last though. All we need to learn is a few more powers of questioning and discernment. As well as not to give something precious away too soon. Then we can better take care of ourselves, and protect ourselves from being abused. Learning how to protect ourselves and rely on ourselves can then again bring out our ability to love. The trust and the love will have changed, it will have matured. It is no less strong. And, maybe we will even so again get into a painful situation. Simply because it is part of life sometimes. Loving people like you and I will most likely again be able to emerge from it, with our ability to Love intact. A little more bruised, some tears richer.... But still on our feet, with our idealism, and our Love. In spite of what we have been told we are the strong ones. Lets value that strength and do our best to protect it, to value it, and to stay true to the world and ourselves.

Take care Karolina,
Malene

You are absolutly taking much of what I say broadly, about such human tendencies as "living in one's head, having gone too far with intellectual questioning", VERY personally -- geez! :0) Understand that comment, most particularly was meant to describe the dangers in going too far with "questioning". Was it a statement that you had gone too far? Exactly -- How the flying $%&* could it have been -- I don't know you personally.

As far as vague "buzz" words I "constantly use". Ehem. I sense just a bit of boundary challenged self-expression here Mel.

To wit:

Acting "Within Responsibility" means: when we no longer need reality/life/The Universe/Love -- whatever you may call it to: let us be run over by assholian gurus -- when all along we had the free choice to walk away -- and take adult responsibility for locating non-abusive experts to help us answer the questions we expediently -- and conveniently -- defered to the scumbag guru.

Why does the same God/Love force let our house burn down when we have asked for "protection" -- then go out shopping and leave the iron on due to say: a bad diet / no exercise-related ungrounded flakiness that has been mucking-up our lives for years? Same reason -- we need a very loud loud message about taking adult responsibility.

And adult responsibility is the one effective route to taking our power back from those scumbag authorities (medical, financial, spiritual, et al).

We hired them to fulfill our super cozy perpetual mommy and daddy lifetime spiritual diaper fantasah.

0)
ESB PS all -- pardon the new "Wisdom or Research Thread" -- the chat board would not let me post for some reason, Fri. and I thought it was due to a post number limit per thread. Sure does take a long time to scroll this far down though, eh. :0)

No problem about starting a new thread. When the thread gets too long to download, it's time to start a new one. Anyone who feels it's time is more than welcome to go ahead and do that. So, no worries, or need to apologize.

ESB said: Understand that comment, most particularly was meant to describe the dangers in going too far with "questioning".

Why do you see any dangers in going too far in questioning? The only dangers I see in questioning too much, is if someone goes to the point where they can never make a decision. However, questioning, looking at a situation from many different perspectives, and weighing everything, taking in all the points of view or evidence before making up your mind is incredibly healthy. I only see dangers in not questioning enough.

ESB said: I sense just a bit of interpersonal boundary-challenged self-expression here, Mal.

First of all, I sign my name Malene, you are welcome to use my name, or if you want my screen name which you might have noticed is RanderDK. Please dont show me the disrespect of abreviating or changing my name. It is completely unnecessary.

What do you mean by "I sense just a bit of interpersonal boundary-challenged self-expression here", can you describe how and why you sense I am doing whatever it is?

ESB said: Acting "Within Responsibility" means: when we no longer need reality/life/The Universe/Love, WHATEVER you may call it to: let us be run over by assholian gurus -- when all along we had the free choice to WALK and take adult responsibility for locating non-abusive experts to help us answer the questions we expediently -- and conveniently... -- defered to the scumbag guru.

Well, your form of communcation seems more confusing than clear to me, but let me see if I can rephrase above statement and still hit what you were trying to say: We had the physcial chance to walk away from the abuse but we didnt. Therefore we have all the responsibility for giving away our personal power and listening to the assholes. Is that a correct rephrasing of what you were trying to say?

IF that is a correct statement, then my answer is. Some of the time I had the chance to walk away. Some of the time I would be physically restrained from walking away. However, yes, most of the time I could have left. It is my responsibility that I didnt leave. It is "their" responsibility that they employed mind control techniques to circumvent my normal sense of logic and self to make me stay.

ESB said: Why does the same God/Love force let our house burn down when we have asked for "protection" then go out shopping and leave the iron on due to ungrounded flakiness that has been mucking-up our lives for years? Same reason -- we need a very loud, LOUD message about taking adult responsibility.

Again, a total blame the victim mentality which is so nasty. Maybe there is human fault when a house burns down, maybe the human fault that might be there is not the humans who experienced the loss. Maybe there isnt human fault connected with the situation. There is no need to point fingers, and personally I can say, my God is not a vengeful God who will run painful tests, or damaging lessons on me.

ESB said: And adult responsibility is the ONLY effective route to take our power back from those scumbag authorities (medical, financial, spiritual, et al --) WE hired to fulfill our super cozy, PERPETUAL mommy and daddy spiritual self-castration fantasies.

There is responsibility and personal empowerment in life. But, there is also inexplainable painful occurences which we cant stop from happening. We can only try to grow, learn and Love one another through some of those occurences.

Malene

You're right -- for you. And that I will not even attempt to change. What would be the point in that?

ESB