"Lazaris" has said many, many times that they will "love us forever and a day". Well, what can I say - talk is cheap. And words that are repeated too often lose their impact and value. Anyone can speak the words, "I love you" into a microphone. Those who take love and it's responsibility seriously say it only when they mean it.

What other evidence do we have that "Lazaris" loves us? Many people have said that they have felt so much love while listening to a tape or participating in a workshop. Well, it may not sound too romantic, but one can feel one's own love and project it onto another. One can feel the love of many
Unseen Friends and label it "Lazaris". Why would anyone do that? Because at the moment we feel the love, we're told that the love is coming from Lazaris. We're told this over and over while we are in an Alpha state, and are particularly susceptible.

And perhaps we want to believe it. We want to experience a love that is greater and more pure and unconditional than any imperfect human being can offer us. Unfortunately, in our quest we sometimes supplant the real, but imperfect love of our intimates in deference to the phony love promised by "Lazaris". The natural longing for these words "I love you"
allowed the fasted-moving computer virus to date gain access into many a computer. One's Soul can be protected by the firewall of discernment.

There is a Higher Love than human love. It is the Love of God/Goddess. No intermediary is necessary. One doesn't need to "pay retail". As high as the markup is that Concept: Synergy charges on their crystals, the "markup" they charge on this Higher Love is much greater. This "pound of flesh" is not measured in dollars and cents, but in dignity and freedom.

This is a quote about love bombing from Steve Hassan's cult awareness site which I particularly like:

"Mind-control techniques such as love-bombing are designed to bypass a person's intelligence and
especially his critical-thinking skills..When a... person
suddenly receives an overwhelming amount of love and acceptance, it is extremely difficult for him to stand back and assess the reasons for this or question something he desperately doesn't want to have
disappear."

I think that Love Bombing is a technique widely used to initially entice, and then to later control and manipulate. We don't have to be in a cult to be "love bombed", or not a big cult anyway. Love Bombing can be employed by one person to who wants to control another.

We all know the stereotype of the dishonest lover or abusive spouse who keeps their partner chained to them by frequent and often dramatic assertions of love. People get away with everything up to and including murder by convincing their victims that they love them.

So, sure, Jach employs "love bombing" as a technique. It's fundamental. It doesn't even make him clever. It's a tried and true method to get people interested and hooked on you, or what you have to say, and to create a blind dependency.

You are so right in asking for evidence of Lazaris' alleged love. Where is it?

Oh yes, we have all felt a tremendous and mind blowing love during our times with Lazaris, moments when we are completely under the ether.

But, where is the love day to day, minute by minute? Where is the love when a forum member is being trashed or abused, where is Lazaris when all of us are being manipulated, lied to and cheated?

C/S can spend their lives trying to convince people that the horrible, ugly, soul destroying thrashings in the Forum are "love", but only those who have lost their ability to think clearly will be able to invest in that statement for very long.
Sooner or later it has to become apparent that it isn't loving to publicly judge, insult, and hammer a person either into submission, or until they quit or are thrown out. That just isn't love by any rational understanding.

We recognize that incredible feeling that we all know as love during the seminars and while listening to the tapes, or when loving and being loved in our lives, but is there anyone who can state that they have felt that same feeling while observing or participating in these sieges?

I would sure like to find someone who would stand up here and say that those spiritual thrashings made them feel good, happy, secure, wanted, or any of the positive emotions we all attribute to and recognize as a part of love.

Someone recently wrote to say that she found these "fights" to be of value. When challenged to explain that, or demonstrate it, there was no reply. No reply, because there is no value to be had in observing, participating in, or being on the receiving end of such a public thrashing.

Sure, love has it's tougher moments when the need for honesty causes discomfort, but those who love each other take great care of each other during such moments.

Any one of us who has had a difficult confrontation with a loved one knows that it would be unkind and abusive to just continue hammering and hammering, without letting up for one second, relentlessly pointing out the problem in minute detail, demanding agreement, hurling insults, judging one's very state of beingness, refusing to accept apologies or explanations,tearing apart and never once stopping to let things sink in, or take a break to assert and exhibit love, patience, understanding, tolerance. Never for a second, because by this definition of "love" it would be enabling and manipulative to do so. It would be disrespectful of self to give one break, one split second of compassion or understanding for the pain and confusion this "assault of love" was causing.

I would like to hear one story of one person who has ever "loved" another this way and walked away feeling good about it, or having had any success at actually helping the other person. Anyone who "loves" like that needs a psychiatrist or legal intervention.

That is how OJ loved Nicole.

Parents who treat their children this way could be validly labeled child abusers. Anyone, anywhere, under any circumstances who employs such methods of "showing love" are abusers, anywhere but in the Forum it would seem.

Imagine having a disagreement over a political issue with loved one which involved all of the above, and added as a special bonus bit of "love" the help of 5 or 6 or 20 others, who all contributed one more bit to this ramming, relentless, cold-hearted, compassionless, tirade. Imagine! Then imagine the whole neighborhood standing by and saying absolutely nothing, but coming out to watch again and again, everytime a there was a new "disagreement".

Yet, this goes on in the Forum routinely and some people have observed, participated, accepted, and glorified it for years.

This just is not healthy or even rational, yet, because so many of us could not face losing this incredible "love" of Lazaris, we blinded ourselves to that clear and obvious fact and participated, perpetrated, supported, and observed this ourselves.

Of course, by C/S explanation, by saying all this, I am in negative-ego, self-pity, martyr, victim, child, adolescent, and a total menace to all with whom I come in contact. I am not worthy of anything but another thrashing.

No thanks. I'll pass on all the love.

Katie

Thanks for including Steve's quote. It adds a lot of depth to the concept. I went to his site, but couldn't find much information, so I pretty much wrote my own thoughts on the topic. My words did come from the Higher Realms though - just kidding[g].

I do want to mention that I think a significant amount of the love we feel at a seminar also comes from the other participants. When hundreds of people gather for a positive purpose, there is quite a bit of energy, in spite of any scams that may be being perpetrated. The synergy of many sincere people focused on a goal can be truly Magical.

The problem is that, in using "Lazaris" as the focal point, we give our Power away. "Lazaris" often says that we shouldn't give our power away to the "illusion". Given that I believe that "Lazaris" is an illusion, I couldn't agree more[g].

I agree with you about the "tough love" technique employed in the Forum. For tough love to work, humility and compassion are acutely necessary. Both are severely lacking in most of these "encounters".

The arrogance to assume that one can assess another's state of consciousness based on what someone posts in the forum is immense. Especially when that person explains the misunderstanding, but the explanation is rejected because the Gang knows better. Or to determine that someone is "in negative ego" based on their political opinion, as if there is only one "correct" opinion.

Then there is the lack of compassion. Even if the target of the "tough love" were "in negative ego", they still deserve some compassion. Showing compassion isn't necessarily enabling. And if someone wants to take such a hard line, then they ought to be willing to take the heat when they make a mistake. I've seen no such willingness on the part of the Orlando Gang.

Another necessary ingredient in tough love is the recipient's permission. Even "Lazaris" says they will not force their love on us - tough or otherwise. Why then do the Gang think they have license to force themselves on others? OK, maybe there's an implicit agreement that by participating in the Forum, one grants permission. (Though I'm not sure that "implicit agreement" is not an oxymoron) But again, it's a two-way street. For the Gang to take the position that they get to inflict their "love" on others, but nobody else can do likewise to them is more than a double-standard - it implies that the Gang is in a superior position. Which would be bad enough if they stated it, but they don't and I'm quite sure they would deny it if challenged - and maybe they have.

As for those supposed "mapmakers" who stand by and condone this behavior, I'm certainly glad we're not depending on them to show the way. The map of acquiescence and cowardice is old and useless. As are the maps of hierarchical relationships, judgment, blind obedience, denial, projection, divide-and-conquer and sycophancy. Did I miss any?[g]

Another thing: Does anyone really have the right or the ability to determine someone else's state of consciousness, such as declaring that someone is "in negative ego"? I think we have a right and a responsibility to point out to people that they have done something which hurt us. And we can be specific - "negative ego" is pretty vague. The person being challenged about their behavior has the right and responsibility to decide if they are coming from martyr, child, whatever. It's our business to point out the destructive behavior - it's not our business to psycho-analyze the person. It seems to me that to do so is getting real close to practicing medicine without a license. And doing it in a (semi) public forum violates the doctor/patient privacy standard.

Thanks for your thought provoking posts on Love Bombing. It's an interesting concept and I never really thought about it in such a way before. It does make sense. In my own healing I've been looking at the dynamics that had a big impact on me, what attracted me, what overcame my initial skeptism and got me hooked. I can even remember the exact moment I decided to suspend my disbelief and did so for the next twelve years! Incredible!

Anyway, reading about this as a general dynamic of mind control rather than just a personal experience adds to my understanding of what's going on for me.

Ted, I had to go back and read this one paragraph twice:
[As for those supposed "mapmakers" who stand by and condone this behavior, I'm certainly glad we're not depending on them to show the way. The map of acquiescence and cowardice is old and useless. As are the maps of hierarchical relationships, judgment, blind obedience, denial, projection, divide-and-conquer and sycophancy. Did I miss any?[g]]

I guess the operating word here is "condone". Those who watch and tell themselves that what's happening is okay. Because I know...and I'm one of them...there are many, many people who watch, but don't post because they don't want to be the next target, not because they condone what's going on. And that's an important distinction to make. It's not right, but it's a distinction nonetheless.

Their love for Lazaris and the fear of not wanting to lose that love should they piss Peny off also keeps their mouths gagged and their hands tied.

Because even though Lazaris defines your spirituality as your relationship with God/Goddess/All That Is, what has happened is that for many of us our spirituality has become our relationship with Lazaris...and Peny is like the gatekeeper to that relationship.

It's one of those crazy situations when you're "outside of the set"...(sorry, had to use that :) )...you can see so clearly that being in that situation is not only unhealthy but goes against everything you've been taught through the Lazaris material. And it's obvious that the dynamics that enforce being in this very un-Adult place is oppressive.

But when you're in it, it's hard to see it that way. It's hard to see anything at all. All you know is that something is wrong...but it can't be because if it is you lose Lazaris and so therefore YOU must be wrong and what you see is right, and if not right, then something beyond your understanding at this present point of your evolution compared to Peny and her closest inner circle or whatever...because afterall, Lazaris has chosen Peny, lifted her above all others, set her as an example of an enlightened mind (as opposed to dimly lit which is what you might be if you can't see all this love and beauty in these thrashings...or perhaps in your negative ego along with the person being thrashed). So who are you to argue? Or question let alone post????

It must have sucked to be in the thrashing chair, and I'm sorry I didn't respond.

But the fact is I refuse to post there now - for different reasons than the unhealthy ones I described.

I'll go into that in another post soon.

Love,
Seeker

Yes, I think Love Bombing is a big piece of the puzzle. It's one of the sticking points where we can understand logically that what goes on in the Forum is contrary to the teachings of Lazaris and we can logically see how Jach may be using wisdom which is available elsewhere, but what about the love?

I hesitate to deromanticize love, but for the sake of descernment, it must be done sometimes. And I have enough faith in the mystery and majesty of love to feel confident that it won't lose it's appeal even when scrutized under a microscope. It may even gain some appeal, because, with honesty, the real Love shines even brighter, even as the fake love dims.

I did purposely use the word condone - as you say, that is the operative word. I know that the adjectives I used may bristle some people, but I feel it's time to put it out on the table.

I think these "maps" that I describe are fodder for the proliferation of cults. One is not a "mapmaker" because "Lazaris" says they are, or because they work with the Lazaris material. To be a mapmaker requires that one stop using the worn and torn maps that imprison us. I've already used those maps too many times myself.

I know that there are many who don't condone what's going and who don't post in the Forum. The Forum has no avenue for Freedom of Mind. Therefore no map existing within the Forum can point to that avenue. The map of challenging the Orlando Gang and being thrashed is not a new or elegant map either.

The map of simply leaving the Forum may not be new or exciting, but it may be the most effective map for many people. I'm not sure we need to make new maps. The maps of descernment, courage and compassion are ancient, but they still pack a wallop. The Founding Fathers used them to great effect.

[[It must have sucked to be in the thrashing chair, and I'm sorry I didn't respond.]]

Dearest Seeker, I hope you didn't think I was criticizing you in my post. You certainly don't owe me an apology. Your presense here has been most uplifting and helpful. I don't want to browbeat anyone into responding to this situation in any particular way. Please call me on it if I do. As I stated above, my own method of handling this wasn't the most elegant. I have no shame about it, but I certainly wouldn't want to pressure anyone else to respond as I did.

I'm bringing this thread to the top for further discussion, if anyone is interested.

quote:

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I asked and you guys really came through for me with helping me understand the definition. I LOVE YOU GUYS!!

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And we love you too, What! Desperately, passionately, devotedly, and eternally. Our hearts are as one, beating in unison, and with each beat our love grows!!

Um, by the way? Got any spare cash???

I think you've got it!!

Katie

It is interesting to reread this thread from a few years ago. In rereading, one thought hits my mind - how lucky we were to have such a stupid, ultimately forgettable incident in our lives as our involvement with the Lazzhole scam and the unpleasantness at Forum, be the event that slapped us from love-trance into personal-responsibility REALITY.

Without getting too political: now every time we turn on CNN we see "tranced" individuals, groups and nations formerly "love-bombed" into pliability being "bomb-bombed" for "their own good" or for the good of an even "Higher Love." So many people are, by being on the receiving end of truly torturous, irreparable "tough love," getting slapped into the reality that they are not "loved" but controlled to fulfill someone else's agenda.

Umm...cheers!
Karolina

I, personally, want to thank you for keeping this site going from the pre-9/11 era. It has given me the opportunity to have this personal breakthrough that puts my, again comaparably, pain-free life & assertion of personal power/true freedom, in a much more appreciative perspective.

This is not love-bomb flattery - it is true gratitude!

LOVE and PEACE!
Karolina

Yes, in retrospect, it does all seem like a bit of a non-event. The real event, IMO, is the waking up from the trance part.

quote:

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Without getting too political: now every time we turn on CNN we see tranced individuals, groups and nations being "love-bombed" for "their own good" or for the good of an even "Higher Love." So many people being slapped into reality by torturous, irreparable "tough love".

---

It's ok with me if we get political. We're all steeped in politics these days, watching a horrific war unfold in front of our faces. Actually, I think it's a good thing for us to get very political because there is so much at stake.

I'm not totally sure how the "love bombing" topic ties in, I guess you're being sarcastic about the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. Do you see the Allied Forces offering those invasions as being offered up as acts of love to those countries?

I missed your gratitude post somehow.

You are so, so welcome, and thank you too for contributing so much to this site, especially back in the early days when we were just breathing life into this discussion, and of course now too!!

I think many of us have come a long, long way in the perspective department!! This site is still awesome, not because of me and Ted, but because of everyone, who like you, have put their hearts and souls into posting here. And you most certainly have done that!! It's greatly appreciated, and it's our pleasure to host it.

No, actually I am not being sarcastic here, but I'm not sure that I will be able to convey all of the ideas that were love-bombing my intellect (all at the same time) to create this morning's breakthrough thought.

It was based not so much on the CONCEPT of love-bombing, as on the text in the posts you and Ted had written in this thread two years ago. Also on ideas that have been batted around in the Hypnosis thread and in Ted's Ben Franklin Dominion thread in the last few days.

quote:

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"Mind-control techniques [such as love-bombing] are designed to bypass a person's intelligence and especially his critical-thinking skills.

---

This pretty much describes the type of person we were discussing in the Hypnosis thread - not just a cult member, but anyone allowing him or herself to be "hypnotized," one way or another, and manipulated by outside suggestions.

Okay so, our fictitious person is clearly not in "Dominion," in the Ben Franklin sense of the word.

What is true freedom? Benny's dominion: responsibility for the self, justice, honesty, all that good stuff. NOT a possibility if one is being irresponsible to oneself and allowing (consciously, unconsciously or subconsciously) someone else's will or agenda to overrule one's own and influence one's actions.

Here is a quote from you with a few words changed to get across my idea of how the American people are maybe just now waking up out of a 3-year trance:

quote:

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[George W. and his crew] can spend their lives trying to convince people that the horrible, ugly, soul destroying [violent killing in Iraq and Afghanistan is for their and our own good], but only those who have lost their ability to think clearly will be able to invest in that statement for very long.

---

And on the Abu Graib prison photos and the mindless drones who carried out instructions from their Job Gurus:

quote:

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Sooner or later it has to become apparent that it isn't [ethical] to publicly judge, insult, and hammer a person either into submission, or until they [lose their mind].

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Now, for the other side. I don't want to offend any Moslems reading here, so please understand that my opinion comes from my peripheral knowledge of the facts. My words are not written in God's Golden Ink.

quote:

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But, where is the love day to day, minute by minute?

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Have you ever noticed that it seems the suicide bombers, etc. are generally unmarried men. These guys have been spending their entire lives praising Allah and basking in the glow of His love 7X a day. They absolutely believe that one is supposed to make love only to one's wife (wives), and that if one is unmarried, it is a sin to have sex.

Their day to day, minute by minute needs are NOT being tended to by the society that enforces their belief system.

So when a married guy, who already has made a name for himself by getting other unmarried, primed by prayer, emotionally dependent guys to do what he wants them to do, gives one of these men instructions to go blow himself up on a bus so that he can receive 72 virgins for his very own pleasure - the poor guy jumps at the chance.

Imagine a man with a fulfilling sex life being given instructions to strap a bomb to himself and walk into a busy restaurant?

His answer would be "You're kidding, right? YOU strap yourself up and go buddy - I'm getting laid in a half of an hour."

It seems that everybody is operating in these times in one kind of a trance or another, and unable to make rational, logical, humane judgements.

I'll write more when I can.

Ciao,
K.

Thanks for your thanks, and I echo Katie in saying that we all make this board what it is, certainly including you.

So thanks for the thanks for the thanks!

Ummm...I went back and reworded my yesterday's post about the international mind-control wake-up call. Between the two of them now, I think you'll be able to understand what it was that I was waking up to yesterday morning - no trance (cult, religion, patriotism, etc.) lasts forever. Those "hypnotists" lose their power when their VICTIM's realize that they must reclaim their own power in order to survive.

We REALLY got off easy.

quote:

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And the proof of that is on CNN every day.

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Any one news outlet is going to present a slanted perspective. When big news events hit I find myself channel surfing, and it's amazing to notice how differently the various outlets and reporters portray things. CNN is not my favorite, I prefer that evil Fox network, home of the mean conservatives (and Alan Colmes).

But for the final word on any given issue, I don't feel untranced until I spend a lot of time reading everything I can find on the topic, with full realization that I'm never going to get all the facts.

I support the President, and our military efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan. I detest war, and I detest not knowing everything I need to know to make a fully responsible decision. But I know enough to want to support the war against the rapidly growing fundamentalist Islamic movement, that is avowed to destroy freedom and replace it with tyranny at its worst. I'm sad to say that I believe without question that it is a war that must and will be fought, on our terms or not, now or in the future, here, or there. I prefer now, on our terms, and there, not here. Call me selfish, but I don't know of any Iraqui whose ancestors fought for freedom and human rights, as yours and mine did. We have earned our freedom, and we are fighting for theirs. No matter how horrific anyone wants to imagine that the US is treating Iraquis and Afghanis, it can't hold a candle to the treatment those people have been subjected to for centuries now. It's just a fact, and it astounds me that it so often gets missed.

Our President, and our government is charged to defend us, we were attacked on our own soil, our allies continue to be attacked on their soil, and we are promised that we'll be attacked again, and again, and again, until we are all dead.

No Islamic leader has come forth with a list of negotiating points and an offer to sit down and work things out, so I find the opinions of those who continue to call a resolution in that form to be rather misguided and ill-informed as to the nature of the threat we are dealing with.

I wish I trusted our leaders more, and I wish we had access to more information, but I still can't come up with a good reason that we shouldn't be fighting this war, on the soil of those who endorse, support, and promote terrorism, and not our own.

Things are probably as bad as they are, and Bush has the power he has because, IMO, Bill Clinton was more concerned about his image and getting his d**k s****d than he was actually functioning as president. But in fact, these problems and mistakes go back a long ways, and can't all be laid in Bush's lap. National defense is laid in Bush's lap, and for the most part, I support his strategies. Honestly though, I wish I didn't. I wish I saw real hope and promise in some other course of action.

At the end of the day, what I support is the system under which we are governed, and IMO, the ultimate issue is whether or not we're going to preserve it. That's up to us the citizens of this country, we still do have that power, and we'd better start taking it seriously, especially and particularly those who don't like the current administration.

It was the "morally superior" liberal movement that led Russia into revolution, for the same reasons and with the same strategies as the increasingly left leaning liberal movement is implementing now. I was a Commie, and I know the game. We'd better all wake up and smell what's cooking for sure, or pretty soon all we'll be smelling is cabbage.

I could post on this topic all day, and yes, I agree with you that we are all tranced out to some degree or another by the media, our government, the entertainment industry, and all those who have our attention on a regular basis.

So, yes, we'd better come out of our trance and soon, I agree. We are, without question being emotionally manipulated, so we'd better work really hard to get our facts straight, or at least as many of them as we can. We do have the benefit of history, and unprecedented access to information. None of the media outlets are pimping history, the internet, or any alternative sources for information. Everyone of them is operating on an agenda that has nothing to do with you and me being free, safe, or secure.

Maybe we should move this discussion to the political threads. Or not, it's my personal belief that everything we discuss is relevent to the Liezaris experience, because it's all about thinking instead of letting others think for us, as you've said.

I'll meet you at the Political Threads tommorrow at sunrise.

Bring your pistol.

My dual second is polishing my pistol even as I am writing this.

quote:

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Originally posted by Karolina:
[B]His answer would be "You're kidding, right? YOU strap yourself up and go buddy - I'm getting laid in a half of an hour."

B]

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What are you trying to say? That I wouldn't be here if I was getting laid? Hey man, I'm in a slump right now. Sheesh, just get off my back ok?

Hell K, I can't believe you edited out that hot post? Watcha think we are, a bunch of prudes?? Never rip us off for a howl like that one!! Please!

What, I hope things improve on the slump situation. Maybe you really would like to have someone on your back!! Or someone on their back. Fess up!!

I'm cleaning ma pistol Ms. Karolina!!

See you at sunrise!! Maybe What can moderate. That's a sexy job, and sure to generate lots of interesting offers!

I hear tell that a lot of sexy superstars lurk here, so strut your stuff What!!

You wrote:

quote:

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It's like - we can't have 'democracy' or international PEACE until basically everyone is in 'dominion.' And that includes correcting any subconscious thought patterns created by familial, cultural etc. "hypnosis."

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Liezaris' promise is that not everyone needs to be in Dominion, that we can be in Dominion on our own and not allow tyrants in our reality. Of course that didn't stop the Gangsters from programming that everyone else "wake up" - i.e. for everyone to agree with their right-wing ideals. Maybe it was their programming that made us fools wake up - as Liezaris says, "Be careful what you wish for...".

So does everyone need to be in Dominion? Perhaps that would be the ideal, but I think that we as a nation have largely achieved Dominion - not perfectly, but probably more than any other nation ever has. Part of that Dominion is the ability and willingness to defend ourselves against those who haven't a clue what Dominion is. We fools are defending ourselves against the mind-controllers - not perfectly, but quite well.

As for democracy: I don't think we have a pure democracy, nor do I think we should. Apparently the Founding Fathers didn't think so either, so they set up a democratic-republic - or is it a republican-democracy? The FFs were concerned about the "tyranny of the masses", which pure democracy could perpetrate. We have elected representatives who presumably have more time, energy and knowledge than the rest of us to make decisions. And we have laws which were debating and considered for long periods of time. When those laws prove to be wrong, in spite of the care taken in enacting them, we have the power to change them. This is brillance, IMO.

If the masses were to have their way, there may not be a separation of Church and State. Ironically many Republicans suggest more of a mixture between Church and State based on the premise that the majority of Americans are Christians. That's really a Democratic argument. Fortunately, the FFs were wise enough to create a system where the majority cannot always impose its will on the minority.

As for international peace, I wish I had an answer. Everyone being in dominion probably would result in peace, but I hope peace is possible before that day comes. Even in this free country, most really are not operating from a place of dominion, so the day that everyone in the world does may be far off indeed.

So how much truth is there in Liezaris' claim that we can find dominion on our own, regardless of the state of others' consciousness? In think, as usual, it is a half-truth. I think our own dominion does protect us to some extent from the tyranny of others. And there may be those extremely rare, self-realized people who know true dominion always, in every aspect of their lives. But, if so, they came to it after a tremendous amount of time effort. For Liezaris to suggest that one can achieve dominion by doing a few "meditations" and deifying Peny-Ante is absurd.

I'm satisfied with the belief that I can make my life better by practicing the principle of dominion, which I will be learning for the rest of my life and beyond. I already have experience to reinforce this belief. So I may still be fooled from time to time, and I may still be killed by a terrorist, I will continue to improve my life, whether or not some idiots haven't figured it out yet. Waiting for others to "get it" is a sure sign of not being in dominion.

I absolutely agree. My being on your back is dreadfully ineffective.

Tell you what, What -- I'll meet you at sundown at the Naughty Threads and we can explore some of Katie's suggested alternatives.

My dualing second and I waited for you at the Political Threads this morning, but you never showed!? So we went home and, well...he got on his back.

I guess I won the dual by default, huh?

I enjoyed reading your post as always. I was particularly struck by the idea that we are defending ourselves against those who have no clue what dominion is.

Hmmmm...interesting as a temporary solution. But if we want to achieve a perfect global society, ignorance must be eliminated. Not just backed into a corner. Or swept under the carpet. Or put on its back.

quote:

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Tell you what, What -- I'll meet you at sundown at the Naughty Threads and we can explore some of Katie's suggested alternatives.

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Whew baby!! Now where are those naughty threads????

Do we know "What"'s gender, btw????

What?????????????? Speak!! This isn't one of those cybersex chats where we want to find out that we've been having hot chat with someone's toothless grandma who we thought was some muscular stud now!!!

I hate when that happens!

Katie

quote:

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My dualing second and I waited for you at the Political Threads this morning, but you never showed!?

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BS!! I was there, but no Krispy Kremes so I left. What kind of a dueler are you anyway? Who wants to die on an empty stomach?

quote:

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So we went home and, well...he got on his back.

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Oooh baby!! Now, there's a solution to the world's problems!!

quote:

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I guess I won the dual by default, huh?

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Let me know when your second is out from under the "influence" and we'll see if anyone is left standing.

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Tough cookies!

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No!! I said Krispy Kremes!!!

Katie

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Liezaris' promise is that not everyone needs to be in Dominion, that we can be in Dominion on our own and not allow tyrants in our reality.

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Yeah, there's another one of those new-age mindfucks. Now we have to be in "Dominion" since we paid for the seminar and bought the tapes, so it's either "dominion" or denial.

I'm so sick of this kind of immature abuse of valuable concepts. I guess it isn't good for business though, to mention that the achievement of states of enlightenment and personal power isn't something that someone else can actually teach us.

They can inspire us though, and so far, Jachass (Jach Pursel): NOT IMPRESSED!! It was nice of Peny to provide us with the ultimate value of your "techniques" though. There's another map we can toss into the garbage heap with the rest of the short cuts to hell.

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Of course that didn't stop the Gangsters from programming that everyone else "wake up" - i.e. for everyone to agree with their right-wing ideals. Maybe it was their programming that made us fools wake up - as Liezaris says, "Be careful what you wish for...".

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LOL....It's a funny thought, but let's get real. There were no mystical techniques involved in the process. Not unless we've elevated thinking and feeling to the status of specialness.

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but I think that we as a nation have largely achieved Dominion - not perfectly, but probably more than any other nation ever has.

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I think that what the founders offered us is the opportunity to achieve Dominion, and I think the American Revolution and the establishment of our nation was very much an example of the spirit of Dominion in practice, but I don't believe that we have, as a nation, maintained or preserved the spirit.

The state of Dominion is an impeccable practice. It doesn't involve the need to negotiate, apologize, or wrangle about one's ideals. The slippery slope here, is that neither does arrogance. IMO, there is a fine line between the two, especially in the mind of the uninitiated observer, and we are all essentially uninitiated observers. Most likely, the ability to decipher the difference between Dominion and Arrogance is relative to our own ability to decipher it in ourselves.

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Part of that Dominion is the ability and willingness to defend ourselves against those who haven't a clue what Dominion is.

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Hmmmm....there's something to ponder, for sure. By Lazarian, ACIMite, and new-age thinking, the teaching is that we need not defend ourselves against anything, because all "attack" is just an illusion.

To me, Dominion is the state of understanding with precision where defense is necessary. Clearly, until the entire universe is enlightened, we all need to know how to, and be willing to defend ourselves, even if only against objects falling from the sky, if we desire to go on living in peace and safety.

[quote[We fools are defending ourselves against the mind-controllers - not perfectly, but quite well.[/quote]

Here's where to me, the state of Dominion doesn't involve "defense". When we are in full possession of our own minds, no one can threaten that. Not even death can threaten that. The question is, at what point do we rest on our laurels that we are?

I don't claim Dominion in this area. I do have it as a goal though, and sparring with the mindfuckers is good practice! So is sparring with my own inner mindfuckers. Thinking a lot helps quite a bit with those little buggers, as does that often disparaged practice of FEELING.

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We have elected representatives who presumably have more time, energy and knowledge than the rest of us to make decisions.

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And our quest for Dominion as citizens rests in our wisdom and participation in the process of choosing and supervising those elected representatives. Sadly, we don't as a whole do that. We're asleep at the wheel on that one.

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And we have laws which were debating and considered for long periods of time. When those laws prove to be wrong, in spite of the care taken in enacting them, we have the power to change them. This is brillance, IMO.

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Yes, brilliant, but we need to make use of it just as brilliantly. It seems that we as a society are more concerned with changing the laws that really do preserve the map to Dominion than we are of understanding what they are about and why we have them. This is very much, IMO, due to the studied influence of those who seek to deny us our opportunity to achieve Dominion. The Dominion of a citizenry is bad for the business of the unethical and power minded.

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If the masses were to have their way, there may not be a separation of Church and State.

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I think the Founders understood the power of undue influence, how easily people could be led down the garden path, and that is why they afforded us this separation, as well as a system that is not soley subject to the will of the majority.

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Ironically many Republicans suggest more of a mixture between Church and State based on the premise that the majority of Americans are Christians.

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More like on the premise that Christianity has the strongest hold on the majority of Americans. I don't doubt that those who use religion as a method of influence really give a crap what religion they promote. Just like I don't believe that those who promote Fundamentalist Islam give a crap about Allah.

It is very true that religion is the opiate of the masses, and haven't the manipulators of the world capitalized on that understanding? It makes you wonder if Karl Marx was preaching against religion, or offering a tried and true technique for control and manipulation, considering the way his social experiment has panned out.

We really need to get religious belief and practice back into the privacy of our own hearts and minds, and quickly. The imposition by any government, group, or individual is tyranny at it's most ugly and dangerous, IMO.

If we seek true Dominion, we'd better learn to start thinking for ourselves.

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That's really a Democratic argument. Fortunately, the FFs were wise enough to create a system where the majority cannot always impose its will on the minority.

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Sadly, the idea that it should be able to is becoming more and more popular. Gee, I wonder who inspires that idea? Beware strangers bearing gifts of "new and improved democracy" in pretty packages.

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As for international peace, I wish I had an answer.

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True Dominion is the answer, IMO. Just as our status as the world's most interesting experiment in the concept has, in fact, provided significant inspiration toward that goals of peace and freedom for the individual around the world. There is no question that the United States Consitution has influenced many, if not all, burgeoning democracies since it's inception. If we were to really get it right, or if anyone were to really get it right, that would be the true human revolution of freedom, IMO. Leaders operating in Dominion would be the true mapmakers, just as our founders were.

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Everyone being in dominion probably would result in peace, but I hope peace is possible before that day comes.

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Dominion in practice would, IMO, trump all tyranny. The USA did a great job when our leaders were closer to that spirit.

It's a damned shame that we haven't fully mined the opportunity though. Yet, living in the US is still a great dream for millions on the planet who are attracted to our freedoms and opportunities here. If we succeed in providing more freedom and opportunity for other nations, as we have done in the past, and as we are claiming to be attempting right now, this will be our most significant victory in the war against terror and tyranny.

This is why I support the war against Islamic tyranny, in theory. It is a war that must be fought, and must be won. Now let's see if we can get it right. Let's see if we as citizens have our heads screwed on straight enough to exercise our responsibilities and rights toward the stated goal of providing freedom and opportunity for the people who we claim to be liberating.

So far, it seems to be a bit of a mixed bag, but it goes without question in my mind, that the stated goals and objectives are valid and necessary ones toward the ultimate goal of Dominion, and that we are having some significant successes. I don't know that from watching CNN though. I don't think the news producers over at CNN are real big on the concept of Dominion!! (En garde, Karolina! )

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Even in this free country, most really are not operating from a place of dominion, so the day that everyone in the world does may be far off indeed.

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We have seen times in the history of this country when our citizenry did exhibit a much stronger sense of Dominion, IMO. Those were the days when the Constitution and the history of the American Revolution were still being taught in schools, when Americans were still under the influence of the founders energy of Dominion. I think the energy was effectively laid to rest with John F Kennedy, if I had to frame it in a historical context. It's time for a resurrection I think.

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So how much truth is there in Liezaris' claim that we can find dominion on our own, regardless of the state of others' consciousness? In think, as usual, it is a half-truth.

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Yeah, like a half-pregnancy. Liezaris (Jach Pursel) offers us more of the same pie-in-the sky perversion of concepts as do all those who have plied their wares on the minds of free Americans toward the goal of eroding our rights and freedoms, just like the Commies have been so successful at doing. It's an old manipulation trick known as the "carrot on the stick" technique. Bugger Jach Pursel!! And bugger that cool "neo conservative" Peny North who was as gleeful a subverter of human rights and freedoms as any goose-stepping Nazi who ever lived.

[quote[I think our own dominion does protect us to some extent from the tyranny of others.[/quote]

Most profoundly by exposing the difference. And that is where our country has come under valid criticism, since we have not always served to expose the difference.

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And there may be those extremely rare, self-realized people who know true dominion always, in every aspect of their lives. But, if so, they came to it after a tremendous amount of time effort.

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We have no way of knowing that, so I won't speculate.

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For Liezaris to suggest that one can achieve dominion by doing a few "meditations" and deifying Peny-Ante is absurd.

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Correct. What we do know, is that the state of Dominion is a complex one. Dominion encompasses all the qualities that we seek and admire as the best in humanity; mindfulness, intelligence, humility, honesty, compassion, wisdom, responsibility, committment, vision, creativity, generosity, and personal strength.

We don't achieve any of those through guided meditations at expensive seminars, or through hanging out with immature airhead losers who exhibit none of the above qualities while posing as good and nice people. And there you have the entire new-age movement. Who is behind that one, one might wonder. That's another post for another day.

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I'm satisfied with the belief that I can make my life better by practicing the principle of dominion, which I will be learning for the rest of my life and beyond.

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I think the state of Dominion is the inevitable result that comes from the practice of the qualities I listed above. I don't think it's actually a simple goal unto itself in that sense. To simply seek "Dominion" as a singular quality is in my mind a mistaken objective, because it is not a singular quality, just as a loaf of bread cannot be grown on a tree.

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I already have experience to reinforce this belief. So I may still be fooled from time to time, and I may still be killed by a terrorist, I will continue to improve my life, whether or not some idiots haven't figured it out yet.

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I don't think that being killed by a terrorist or not has much to do with the concept of pure Dominion. I think that all these new-age concepts like "reality creation", "peace, love and good vibrations" and even Dominion as offered by our creepy pal, Jach Pursel, (Jachass), are way too tied into conceptual limitations.

New Agers have a simplistic concept of "enlightenment" that doesn't allow for anything that smacks of "failure" like being blown up by a terrorist,developing cancer, having an accident, getting angry, being unhappy, or feeling any emotion other than that purple plastic "love" that is served up at every meal. Despite all the denials, we retired airheads know the facts about that. The "crystal cave" proves that, for those of us who are familiar.

To me, Dominion would mean getting blown up by a terrorist,being fully conscious of the experience, and able to accept it without feeling a sense of failure or guilt.

Without question though, it would involve feeling intense remorse. Remorse for the loss of my life and for the stupidity and brutality of my fellow human.

Remorse is so far in my experience, the powerful, most healing and transformational of all emotions. (Interesting too, that it gets such low billing among the "peace, love, and good vibrations set.) So, I also suspect that true Dominion involves having ability to feel that.

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Waiting for others to "get it" is a sure sign of not being in dominion.

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I fully agree. I wish the preachers and teachers would just go ahead and get it, so we can all see what it looks like. What they're showing so far isn't very attractive, let's face it. Let's not forget the Ugly Clown or Gene, Gene, the Dancing Machine!! Eeewwww!!!

Katie

I don't think that you and I have any scores to settle where CNN is concerned, as I really don't care what news channel is used to view all of the perversion, violence, pain, suffering, brutality, and degradation that was shown on every station this past month. The opinions of the journalists means very little to me unless they offer me a different perspective to consider.

The score that we DO need to settle is: you speaking so flippantly about our wonderful former President, Mr. Bill Clinton.

If you recall, the reason that I was thrown out of the Forum three days after joining, was my annoyance with the Gangstas nasty gloating about George W. being appointed President and their joy about how Bush was going to help their Federal Taxes. Before he was appointed, everyone was supposed to participate in some kind of hokey-pokey, hoochi-koochi, reality creation crap. I let them know that I thought George W. was an arrogant, self-serving liar, and would lead this country (which I love, incidentally) into hell, and we'd have to spend many years, if not decades digging our asses out of there.

Well, they didn't like me after that. Hmmm.

And I also want to let you know that I have no interest in going down the Commie Highway. I was taught by my familial elders, since I was born, that Communism doesn't work. I was shown that anything that is not based on "dominion," though that is not the word that was used (honesty, freedom, personal responsibility, truth, etc.), needed brutality, violence and fear to enforce it and that is why we ended up in this great country.

I would like to also point out that the other end of the spectrum from the “morally superior left,” would be the “self-protecting right.” And we know what that did in Germany. Hello Mr. Hitla. Good-bye discriminating thought.

Now this Allah-worshipping craze of terrorists who seem to be nothing but very pissed-off people being used to let off their steam to propel someone else’s plan. I'm not sure where this falls on the spectrum.

Or maybe it's a new spectrum altogether, as most of them are not thinking about life here, but about life AFTER being here. So really, they don't give a flying fuck about dominion...they are not even thinking about life at all?

Right?

Cheers,
Karolina

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I don't think that you and I have any scores to settle where CNN is concerned, as I really don't care what news channel is used to view all of the perversion, violence, pain, suffering, brutality, and degradation that was shown on every station this past month.

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I prefer the ones that show all the perversion, violence, pain, suffering and brutality in direct proportion to whom is doing the perpetrating against whom. The brutal and purposeless beheading of Nick Berg, for example, is old news, now that it's been decided that it happened because the perps had a good reason to do it. We can be assured that the Abu Ghraib prison scandal will live on for eternity though.

What I'd like to see is a little balance.

I was in the midst of posting to you in the Current Events thread, but I'll ask you the question here instead. Do you believe that our media is biased in any way? That is the pertinent issue here, IMO, in the context of discussing indoctrination and mind control.

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The opinions of the journalists means very little to me unless they offer me a different perspective to consider.

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I'm not sure what you mean by different. There are many journalists who present varied perspectives. For me the more viable source of information is from direct sources though. Journalists can be helpful or hurtful in making us aware of the range of available sources though. Journalistic perspective is just that. Facts are facts. We need ALL the facts to be covered so we can arrive at a balanced perspective. If we have bias in the media, that isn't going to happen. So I return to the question, do we have a biased media here in the States?

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The score that we DO need to settle is: you speaking speaking so flippantly about our wonderful former President, Mr. Bill Clinton. If you recall, the reason that I was thrown out of the Forum three days after joining, was my annoyance with the Gangstas nasty gloating about George W. being appointed President and their joy about how Bush was going to help their Federal Taxes.

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Yes, I recall the situation. I'm not sure how it relates to this discussion though, if you're serious. I'm a tad confused about whether you are or not.

You are welcomed to state whatever opinions you'd like about George Bush here. Hopefully, everyone is as welcomed by you to respond with their own thoughts as well.

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Before he was appointed, everyone was supposed to participate in some kind of hokey-pokey, hoochi-koochi, reality creation crap.

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Yes, I'm aware of all that. I'm sure the "map-makers" are still operating under this kind of cheezy indoctrination rather than just stating their cases and allowing others to do the same.

We all have to learn how to do that if we're ever going to get an airing for all facts and opinions, and we need those in order to make conscientious decisions.

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I let them know that I thought George W. was an arrogant, self-serving liar, and would lead this country (which I love, incidentally) into hell, and we'd have to spend many years, if not decades digging our asses out of there.

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I don't know of any politicians who aren't self-serving liars. It comes with the territory. That is because, IMO, we the citizens tolerate it.

As to leading our country into hell, I don't agree with the perspective that this is what's happening. I share the fears of many that it could happen, but again, that is what being a citizen is about. We have the right to make our case. So far, the case hasn't been made IMO.

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Well, they didn't like me after that. Hmmm.

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Oh face it,Karolina, they don't like anyone, not even themselves. Popularity among that group isn't much of a prize. It never is in cults.

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And I also want to let you know that I have no interest in going down the Commie Highway. I was taught by my familial elders, since I was born, that Communism doesn't work.

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I think we all know that. So do the Commies. It's ok with me if you don't wish to discuss the topic, but I have a lot to say about it and probably will as time allows.

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I was shown that anything that is not based on "dominion," though that is not the word that was used (honesty, freedom, personal responsibility, truth, etc.), needed brutality, violence and fear to enforce it and that is why we ended up in this great country.

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Which, it can't be forgotten was born out of a very brutal and violent war.

How does one appropriately respond to brutality, violence and fear? That is the question we are all facing here. Sometimes it seems that it gets forgotten that anyone other than the US can be held accountable for any war or violence, brutality and fear.

How does a nation based on freedom respond to acts of violence perpetrated by those who wish to destroy not only our freedom but each of us?

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I would like to also point out that the other end of the spectrum from the “morally superior left,” would be the “self-protecting right.” And we know what that did in Germany. Hello Mr. Hitla. Good-bye discriminating thought.

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Yes, it's true. Extremism and fundamentalism are not healthy perspectives. If you look closely enough at them, though, they end up coming together philosophically, at the end of the day, they both function to deny personal freedom. I addressed the morally superior left in the context of that being the predominant perspective of the Russian citizenry prior to the time of the revolution.

Like you, I grew up with a healthy fear and loathing of the far right. I was though, a major player in the far left. I am now correcting my perspective on that. I now fear and loath them equally.

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Now this Allah worshipping craze of terrorists who seem to be nothing but very pissed-off people being used to let off their steam to propel someone else’s plan. I'm not sure where this fall on the spectrum.

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I have some thoughts on that, and that's why I'm interested in discussing Communism. Having been one, I'm familiar with the strategies. I would like others to be aware of what I know.

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Or maybe it's a new spectrum all together, as most of them are not thinking about life here, but life after being here. So really, they don't give a flying fuck about dominion...they are not thinking about life at all? Right?

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Those who are being used are not afforded the opportunity to think about much at all beyond survival. I have nothing but profound sorrow in regards to the way people are used as pawns. But faced with a crazed suicide bomber, I'm not going to stop and ponder what inspired him or her to make this decision. I'm going to protect myself.

I do believe that we have the obligation to attempt to reach these people on philosophical grounds. So though, do their religious and cultural leaders, and that is not happening. Every attempt to bring stability and justice to the people of Iraq and Afghanistan is being thwarted by strategists who flat out don't want freedom for those people.

Who are these strategists, what is their agenda?

We can't just isolate the situation as being the fault of the big bad Americans.

There is a vast conspiracy in this world to deprive ALL of us of our freedom. This isn't wild eyed conjecture, it's an evident fact.

I don't know the names of the players, I just know their strategies. They trained me.

So the only thing I can look for are the strategies, and follow those back to the source.

And this is why I want to discuss Communism, because I want to discuss the strategies so we can all hopefully do the same thing.

There are many many wolves in sheep's clothing out there, as well as many mindless pawns.

I just don't want to be a pawn, and I don't want my life and/or my freedom destroyed by any either.

I love this country more every day. There is no way that I'm planning on being suckered into joining in with the hue and cry that seeks to diminish the factual reality of what we have accomplished here, for the good, and for the bad. And I know there is both.

But I'd like someone to argue with me that any Iraqi wouldn't think they woke up in heaven if they had half the freedoms, rights, and opportunities we have here.

They don't know really. The media doesn't tell them that part.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feeling Karolina. I hope this discussion serves to bring us to some place of common perspective, or if nothing else that it inspires more thought. It has for me, so thanks for that.

I leave you with the one question about the media, and if you or anyone else is up for it, maybe we could go from there.

My answer to your question is that the media, IMO, is always manipulated. Now, though, it seems that there is more than the one group of people that have the power to work the media to achieve or enforce their own agenda -- so we have more than one bias influencing us.

It used to be mainly the far left w/ an ethnic group that felt entitled to manipulate everyone. Again, IMO. Though that was the general consensus.

So, I totally agree with you that one must be levelheaded and discriminating when trying to understand what is REALLY going on, based on all available resources. And yes, perspective varies from every clear-thinking person to another. (Only mindless followers who have joined a group or turned their power over to a leader and simply spit out what they have been fed, don't have a valuable perspective to offer). Like you, I think that the only way to get a clear picture is to gather as much info as is available, including from as many people who were directly involved on any level, in the incident that is being researched.

Remember when 9/11 happened -- you called me as soon as you could get through to get my perspective (also to see if I was okay, I assume). And I gave you an account of my experience of what happened, though I wouldn't say I was very level headed or even had any opinion yet. Probably all that I was capable of conveying at the time was fear, shock and a weird sense of everything seeming surreal.

Still, that was an honest account of my perspective, and was probably somehow as valuable to you at the time as what was being shown on TV in your quest to start evaluating and understanding what was suddenly happening in the world. And now, we both are still trying to evaluate and understand what the hell this is all about, but we've gathered lots more information from many and various sources, not all having the same bias. This is the only way to do it, I think.

I am very interested in what you have to say about the commies, etc.

Karolina

PS Yeh -- let's go to the other thread.

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Originally posted by Karolina:
Dear What...

I absolutely agree. My being on your back is dreadfully ineffective.

Tell you what, What -- I'll meet you at sundown at the Naughty Threads and we can explore some of Katie's suggested alternatives.

Ciao, baby!
Karolina

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Woo Hoo! I musta missed those alternatives. Looks like a certain lady is lookin' for some luv bombin'! Easy darlin', gonna end up giving What a fever!

Anyways, I think the media is usually biased, since most of them are run by corporate America. Who sponsors them if not the commercials you watch? He who pays the bills calls the shots. That's why I like PBS since it has the most chance of being non-biased. Not that it is completely non-biased, but that it has the best chance to be.

HOW DO CULTS SEDUCE THEIR PREY ?

"" ......A tactic used most often is the "LOVE BOMBING"...They swarm over you in a sort of ,"COCOONMENT".

All of a sudden,,you have,,INSTANT FAMILY,,INSTANT PURPOSE,,INSTANT COMMUNITY,,INSTANT FRIENDS.....And you don't have to look inside yourself for answers anymore,,.. because cult leaders, or their designated high disciples,,dispense all your spiritual needs..

....A mass delusion,,mass hysteria,,operating under the illusion of a master plan...In military jargon this is known as ,"Cluster F**k"...

Beware of Love Bombing.... Leonard Brenner Love-bombing is characteristic of most cults. Prospects, recruits and members are drowned in a sea of love and caring. Recently in an evangelical church I heard the pastor describe his visit to two cultic groups in which he praised their love-bombing and urged that his church adopt the same loving attitude towards visitors and members.

Should the evangelical church practice love-bombing? Is this what Christ meant when he said, "By this will all men know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another," (John 13:35)? I've heard cult members say, "Of course we practice love-bombing: Who'd want to be in a group or church that practiced hate-bombing?"
This attitude highlights a common misconception. >>>Hate-bombing is not the opposite of love-bombing.<<< The opposite of love-bombing is unconditional love.
Love-bombing is highly conditional. The cults will love you to death while you represent a prospective convert to their group.

Here is the web address:

http://www.share-international.org/

Karolina