If the registration is putting you off, you can create a "blind" email address by registering with hotmail, or netscape, yahoo, whatever. This way you will have an email address, but your identity is not revealed to us, or anyone else.

Feel free to vent if you like, I know we are angering some people, but for the most part, the feedback we get is positive about this site. I suspect that there is a dam about to break in a lot of people, just as it has broken for me, Ted, and a few others of our acquaintance.

We have found that it's incredibly therapeutic for people who are waking up to a false belief system to have others to discuss and share with. That is why we built this site, out of our desire to share with others, and to provide a forum for those who might benefit from it.

This is not the Jach and Lazaris Forum. No one is going to have their state of consciousness judged, be insulted, put down, or ganged up on for holding a specific belief or thought. This is a process we are going through here, just as all life is a process, and there are many stopping points along the road from here to there, just as there are many perspectives about life and spirituality. We don't all have to agree, but we can all respect each other and learn from each other. That is the difference between a DISCUSSION board, and one that is set up to control people and manipulate them into one way of thinking, which is what I believe the Jach and Lazaris Forum is about.

I saw some of the posts shortly after this all came down and recently I went back to do some more research and found the entire thread gone. I am very opposed to censorship of any kind. As I know there were no cursing or vulgarity...and I've seen some posts where Peny has used vulgarity...I see no reason for any kind of censorship, and yet it has happened. I think the last post from Ted would have been around April with a couple short friendly greeting type posts later, but the incident of which you spoke in June is gone. Posts by other members, one of whom left and didn't return and her daughter who left but did return are also gone. It's as if none of this had happened...the last post that was kept of Ted is of his apology to Peny for coming across as more fair than others. It made me mad, because that is only part of the picture of what occured and now unless you had read the deleted thread, you will have no idea except Ted's apparent "admission" of guilt. This is a half truth, it's deliberate and very mean.

Though I am not a frequent visitor to the Forum when I am there it is getting increasingly more difficult to try to fit the behavior, attitudes and judgements of Peny and other posters with my own sensibilities.

I haven't come to a conclusion yet...I have been involved with Lazaris' teachings now for over a decade and he has played a tremendous part in my healing and spiritual walk...but I know something is simply not right here. May I ask you to comment on accusations from Peny and other Forum members that you and Ted were trying to set up some rival group in which you portrayed yourselves as givers of unconditional love or something to that effect?

I don't like anyone trying to limit my right to ask questions or come to my own conclusion. They may have kicked you out of the Forum...if you didn't just quit on your own, but I won't allow anyone to decide who I will or won't talk to.

I look forward to your reply.

We were out of the Forum by mid April, so maybe you aren't looking far enough back, although I'm not surprised to know that the threads might have been "surgically removed".
That is so typical of cult behavior, which we have come to recognize as being most active in the Forum. It would make sense to delete those posts, there is just too much there which could not be explained or justified, especially in the light of the "Lazaris" teachings, not to mention basic human ethics and logic.

You ask about the accusations that Ted and I were attempting to set up a "rival group". That was one of our favorite ad hominem attacks, another technique almost universally used by cults, meaning, attack the person, rather than the argument. I'll say this first, and then explain the situation. In the final analysis, it doesn't matter if Ted and I were trying to set up a rival group, because that would be a separate issue. The use of that accusation was just a technique to divert the conversation from the topic, which was that Peny had made misstatements about Ted and others in her post. That is what I addressed to Peny which started the whole Forum Storm. That issue was never addressed, instead the whole discussion became about me and Ted, our characters and motivations.

Ok, the "rival" story is this. When we were in Orlando we met some people from the Forum, and we all bonded quickly. We began to spend lots of time together, and were having a great time, sharing our love for Lazaris, and our excitment about the Millennium celebration, etc.

The day after the event ended, most of this group gathered together near the pool. We just all seemed to gravitate together and we were having a great time talking, laughing, just being together. Of course we were all discussing the event, and the rituals and techniques we had learned. We all had our little bags of magical gifts from the event, and someone suggested that we do a little ritual together. We did that, it was very sacred, and very powerful to be working together like that. We all committed to remain friends, and to remain in communication, and to continue to work magick together. Since the people in the group were literally from all over the world, Ted offered his internet skills to build us a website where we could continue to communicate once we were all home. Everyone loved the idea.

Also, during that time together we discussed the concept of "covenance" which had been the focus of one of the rituals during the Intensive. Someone suggested that the word "coven" was a root of that word, or vice-versa, and we began to talk about the idea that we had all been drawn together for the purpose of forming a kind of "coven" or group committed to doing magick together.
We all really liked that idea, and it was also suggested that the Orlando gang was most likely also such a group. All this was just us theorizing and chattering, but for me it did shed a new light on the concept of a "coven" a word or concept I had never given much thought to. Whether or not we were a true "coven" really wasn't the point, but it was discussed. The real point was that this group of people felt a tremendous amount of love, excitement, and empowerment from working together and we were all high as kites about it. I still have the pictures from that afternoon hanging next to my desk, as for me, it still stands out as one of the most beautiful moments of my life.
I did, and still do, love each and everyone of the people who were there that day in very special way. The energy we generated was palpable.

When we got back home, Ted did build us a website, and a message board similar to this one. Almost everyone participated, including a few who had not been present at the ritual. We were all just busting with joy, love and excitement.

On several occassions issues from the forum came up, there were a few who had some serious scepticism about Peny already, and we had a lot of conversation about not using our little forum to do or say things that would not be acceptable in the Jach and Lazaris Forum. I wrote a long post about my thoughts on Peny and the Orlando gang, in which I stated that whenever I had doubts about anything pertaining to them, I always defaulted to their wisdom, rather than criticize or judge them in a negative way, since after all, they are the people closest to Lazaris, the "true magicians", etc etc etc, and that we should all judge ourselves by their standards rather than our own (talk about being cultified!). My opinions were shared adopted by the group, and we made a rule against any negative commentary or analysis of the Forum or its participants.

I don't know if you were at the Intensive or not, but one thing that really stood out for me, and was a foundation of my feelings about our group was that for the first time in my experience, Lazaris had attendees interacting personally with each other. Prior to that, Ted and I had always pretty much come and gone from workshops with little or no contact with others. Maybe a little conversation here or there, but these workshops had been very personal, and very much between us and Lazaris. All of a sudden, we are in rituals where we are touching each other, looking into each others eyes, really having personal interactions, right up to the last ritual, in which everyone in attendance literally physically touched everyone else. That was quite powerful for me, and quite meaningful.
I took it as a moving to a new level of interaction, as the beginning of a true community of Magicians. The thought excited me, and seemed to be a logical continuation of the grid work some of us were beginning to do together in the Forum. Anyway, that was my thinking at the time, and the basis for my excitement about our group. It had nothing to do with Ted and I wanting to start our own group, or to rival Jach and Peny, as was alleged (stated as fact?) in the Forum.

When one of our members mentioned our group experience in the Forum, all hell broke loose, and we were accused of being childish idiots, lonely desperate losers in search of friends. Jach stated in the Forum, and then later using the same words at at seminar that "covenance is not about making new friends". We never said it was, and it was quite revealing to me that "Lazaris" used Jach's same words at a workshop. That was one of the events which started me doubting that there even is a "Lazaris", because one thing I knew for sure is that if there were a "Lazaris", they knew exactly what had gone on between all of us, and what our motivations and thoughts were. I knew for sure that the beauty and love we all felt together was something wonderful, not something to criticize or seek to diminish. I got to wondering why anyone including Lazaris would have any problems with our little group of loving friends. Of course, I now know why, it is because cults don't support individual thinking, and fear little splinter groups. It all makes perfect sense to me now. At the time, it hurt beyond words, it hurt and confused all of us.

I hope I have answered your questions about our "rival" group.

For the record, Ted quit the Forum on his own, I was thrown out by Jach. He had written to me privately and asked me what I wanted to do to "clean up my mess", and did I want to remain a member of the Forum. I responded to him that I did want to remain a member, but I needed time to think, and that I'd like to just read along, and post more later when I had time to clear my mind. He wrote back that since I was planning on continuing to post without taking any responsibility that he was terminating my membership "effective immediately". So much for a loving, honest, Jach. I'm sure that no matter what I had said he would have thrown me out, and Ted too, if Ted hadn't resigned first. The Forum is about ass kissing, not about a true dialogue. As I said to Jach in a private email, the Forum is a romping ground for Peny's ego, and nothing more. I now believe the whole "Lazaris" myth was created to appease Peny's limitless ego, but that's another story.

I fully understand your confusion about Lazaris. You see something wrong there, but you can't deny the experience. I went through that too. It was a source of enormous pain and confusion for me. For so many years I was such a faithful believer. I had so many intense experiences with "Lazaris" moments of "blending" when I physically felt myself surrounded by this incredible force of love and support. That love was a source of daily comfort for me, and a constant inspiration to grow and learn more. I did magic, manifested miracles, and cried more tears of joy than I could count. How could this energy possible be false?

I took the whole thing apart, piece by piece, like unravelling a tangled ball of yarn. In the end, I could not accept Lazaris' words about Peny. In my opinion and experience, and the experiences of others, she is nothing more than a raging egotistical bitch from hell. I never felt one iota of love from her, despite the many many assertions by the Orlando Gang, Jach, and Lazaris to the contrary. I looked into her eyes, and saw a cold, dead soul.

Once I admitted to myself that Lazaris wasn't telling the truth about Peny, I had to accept that Lazaris isn't the great, loving, truthful being we are told they are.There could be nothing innocent about propping Peny up as a Stellar Being, an Enlightened One. Not when she uses it as she does, to control, judge and hurt unsuspecting people.

But still, how to explain the experiences?
Well, as I've written on our website, I asked. I asked the Love, the energy which has been with me for so long. "Are you Lazaris? Is there a Lazaris? If so, Lazaris, explain this all to me." The answer I got was basically, that there is no such entity which chose Jach through which to channel. There are no channeled entitites of this description, and all such claims are false.

But, the good news is, the Love is real, the experiences are real, at least the personal private ones which resulted in our growth or gave us real assistance or insights.

The rest are experiences created by a clever mind control hypnotist and are nothing more than emotional manipulations and false images deliberately created to provide Jach with a hefty income, and he, Peny, and their band of Gangsters with a forum for abuse, control, and manipulation. I don't honestly think that they set out initially to do that, but that is what it has become, and it is a freight train out of control at this point.

Once again, I want to say that we are not here to convince anyone of anything, but are most willing to discuss our thoughts and experiences with people like you who are having doubts.

Our opinions are just that, our opinions. I certainly don't ask or expect anyone to take my words as fact, or to act upon them. My hope is that others will do some of their own thinking, put together their own puzzle pieces, and share the results with us if so moved.

We are not alone in wondering and questioning, or in our anger toward C/S. It is my belief through my cult investigations that a dialogue with others of similar or like minds is incredibly valuable in helping to sort through the mess, and also as a part of healing the hurts and resolving the confusion.

Mind control is rampant and insidious in our society. It is not something to be ashamed of, or to punish oneself about. It is something to study and understand. I believe that Jach and Peny have made a life work of studying mind control methods and techniques, and that what they do is deliberate, conscious, and evil beyond words.
They are not the only ones who have gotten rich and powerful from utilizing these tried and true techniques. Peny's hero, Madame Blavatsky, another exposed fraud, was the originator of the concept of this type of channeling that Jach claims to do.

True sincere seekers are the most vulnerable to these techniques. Most cult members are highly educated, intelligent, honest people who are easily manipulated by opportunistic frauds. I have met many many ex-cult members, and we all have much in common via our experiences. I hope you will do some studying up on the mind control techniques which define a cult. I think you'll be most surprised to find out to what extent the Forum functions within that definition.

All the best to you, Seeker. Please stick around, and again, thank you so much for writing.

Thanks for sharing.

I think you may be confused about the timing of these threads. The Disagreements in the Forum thread was started by me in February. Of course, it didn't get too far before the focus was shifted to my shortcomings. But that's one of the attributes of cultish behavior - the individual is always at fault, never the "leadership".

The threads where all hell broke loose - that we refer to as "Forum Storm" - took place in April and were titled something like Can we Talk. There were at least 4 versions of this thread when I left, and I understand it went on for at least another month afterward.

The accusations about us "starting a rival group" (actually, I think the term "cult" was used) were started by one of the members of our group. Peny and other Forum members had no knowledge of our group prior to this member bringing it up in April, so they had no basis for an analysis. Amazingly, they were able to discern from said member's few comments about the group that we were all codependent with each other! This member, BTW, received very little respect from the Orlando Gang when it came to political or other discussions. But somehow her word was impeccable in this instance. Go figure.

As for the deleted posts/threads: I think the purpose was more to remove Peny's posts than to remove ours - especially her infamous post about Katie "throwing her spirituality out the window". Peny's posts in those threads are much more incriminating than anything Katie or I would have come up with. Believe it or not, we were still hopeful at that time that Peny would take responsibility.

If I'm recalling correctly we were gone from the forum by the time the "cult" allegations began. We only know bits and pieces and have speculated on the rest.

Don't forget, our friends were told that they would be considered "unsafe" if they continued to communicate with us, effectively ordering them to make a choice between the Forum and our friendship. Anyone care to speculate on the pain and anguish that caused?

And then there was that famous email that went out telling people that they would be breaking the law should they continue to talk to us because of the agreement they signed when they joined the forum. Imagine that anyone would take that crap seriously, yet some did, at least for a time. Talk about censorship!

I guess it doesn't much matter who started it, but what does matter is how many people jumped on the bandwagon in support of Peny in character assasinating us. It was a feeding frenzy for some very nasty people, and nothing more. Those who tried even in the most delicate way to question all this behavior were quickly put back in line. There was no opportunity for anyone in the Forum to speak up, lest they be treated to some more of the same. Who had the courage to face that? No one was able to succeed in getting the conversation focused on the actual issues, and away from character judgements and assassinations.

The one who hurt me the most was the Forum member we met in Orlando who spent private time with us, sharing very personal events from her life over the dinner we had together. She was the one who introduced the idea that we were a bunch of lonely desperate people longing for friendship. Yet, she never mentioned that when she met us face to face she felt enough trust and interest in us to share her very private circumstances, and to introduce us to her young child, or that she hung out with us, and participated in the laughing and celebrating on New Year's Eve that she later labeled as pathetic and childish. That was sad for me, she was someone I respected a lot, was happy to have met, and who was also previously abused in the Forum to the extent that she stopped posting for over a year. She chose to trash us rather than confront the reality of why she was abused. Sad stuff.

Also sad is the "friend" of ours who was so maligned and abused in the Forum from day one. She became a true foil for the sadistic inclinations of one of the "stellar ones", and was rountinely trounced on, negatively judged, mistreated, and spoken to as though she were a child. Her every word was analyzed and disparaged. Yet, when she had the opportunity to do the same to us, she jumped in with a fervent zeal. I think she thought that she would somehow vindicate herself by galloping into the forum on her big white horse to "save" Peny from these terrible "attackers". Funny thing, how all of a sudden, when this woman was acting like a Savior, and was being incredibly and demonstratively dishonest, manifesting the worse type of behavior as defined by Lazaris, all of a sudden she was a hero and being elevated and defended by the same people who had given her zero respect previously.

Go figure.

I just wonder if any of these people have since bothered to take any responsibility for the true pain and anguish the whole mess caused a lot of loving, innocent, honest and good people. All in the name of getting in good with the Stellar Ms. Peny. Better to lie than get on the wrong side of "the Enlightened One". I wonder if they have since figured out that Peny doesn't care a whit for anyone but herself. I think she enjoys all the abuse. She sure has a bizarre attachment to that one notable pit-bull within her close circle. He needs a muzzle, not a forum.

And then, one still has to ask themselves how Lazaris could allow any of this to take place. Lazaris promised to love you and me forever and a day, just like everyone else, yet somehow remained silent and uninvolved while we were being lied about, other than to echo the lie about our group's motivations at a workshop. Only you and I know for sure the extent of the lies, but Lazaris would know, if there were a Lazaris.

Scary stuff.

Katie

I stand corrected. I did get the dates mixed up, however, my observation that the threads to which you referred to in the "Forum Storm" have been deleted is correct, and I do believe it was for the reasons you stated, Ted. It was those threads that took me aback more than anything else and made it harder for me to hold on to Lazaris' endorsement of Peny as an consciousness of light that caught this entity's attention out of 5 billion people. This is where the double standard and the hypocrisy was most evident and now it's gone. I have to wonder how many other posts have been deleted...only recently an employee of C/S fell under fire in the Forum, someone's post had evidently been deleted for supporting this employee and they thanked C/S for deleting that post because they didn't realize that post would have only fed this employee's negative ego and was glad the Forum management didn't permit that.

And we're okay with this? And yet, no one seems to notice or mind this type of control...What bothers me the most in the Forum is the continued deference to Peny and the "entourage" of her supporters that seem to follow her and jump in to validate virtually everything she says. Even censorship and editing is somehow okay...

This is a very sad situation. I did visit the link, Katie, you suggested about hypnotherapy. I found it quite interesting. You said there was no mention of Lazaris there even though you found the site through a Lazaris search. If you go to the links page you will find a link to Lazaris and Concept: Synergy. It's the first one on the list. I don't know what kind of relationship the hypnotherapist has with Lazaris or C/S, or what he thinks of them or what including them on this page signifies to the author, but he obviously knows of them and wanted to include them in his link page.

Thank you for responding to my inquiry and sharing so much of your experience here. Your posts are indepth and quite thorough and I thank you for the time you put into sharing your thoughts.

I send you support in your continued healing and your spiritual journey.

You've given me a lot to think about.

I don't have a lot of time to respond to your post right now, but I will write more later.

So, it's finally happened! A C/S employee takes the heat in the Forum. I have to admit I'm dead curious to know which one.
I've had thoughts for a long time on who the "weak links" are within that group, meaning who the sincere true believers are who would eventually cave under the enormous weight of the inconsistancies, bullying, and outright lies they have to live with on a daily basis in order to function around that gang. I also have my list of speculations of who within the gang are fully aware that the whole deal is a big fraud.

Talk to you soon.

I still have several close friends who are very involved with Lazaris and really don't want to hear about any doubts that I may have so it was very nice to come across your web site--a form of validation for me after all this time.

Oh, thank you for posting here! I can't begin to tell you how much your words and sharing of your experience and perception means to me. This is still very hard for me. Katie and Ted's experience and their courage to put it on the web means a lot, but it's important to have more than two ex-Forum members' voices - especially those who may be accused of having a "bone to pick"...no offense intended or accusation implied Katie or Ted. But I think you can understand the point I'm trying to make here.

It's just good to hear from someone who hasn't been grilled but who through observation and conscience saw what was happening and came to this conclusion. I understand about the friends still involved with Lazaris who don't want to hear. How hard it must have been for you to come to this conclusion five years ago on your own!

The fact is I am still on the fence, in the sense that I'm not ready to fully admit Lazaris isn't real. It's like there's two parts of me...I'm holding two beliefs and examining them both and even though I know where this is leading me I just can't admit it...yet. I just need more time...

But I have this place to come to and now to read your words makes me feel just a little less crazy. It's so ironic one of the things in Lazaris' teachings is to never give your power away to another. I had always liked that. I always felt I was being encouraged to think for myself, that Lazaris honored my thinking process and ability to do so.

But belonging to the Forum slowly erodes your trust in your own ability to think. It seems to me you become more and more dependent upon Peny and her closest friends to determine when you're in negative ego or martyr or child or any other number of places you don't want to be! And if you're not grateful to them for not only pointing this out but the manner in which they do it...which is always, always for your own good...then that's evidence you really are in negative ego and so on.

Peny, in my opinion, is the eye opener, the weak link as it were in this whole thing. Not only her but those who she picks to be closest to her in the Forum. There is something very, very unhealthy going on there. You are right, it is very hard to reconcile her as this exceptional consciousness. You really have to either turn a blind eye or do some very serious mental gymnastics to accept Lazaris' endorsement of her and when you can no longer do that, then the whole thing begins to unravel.

Thank you for posting here. Thank you so much!

I just want to say I do look so foward to visiting here. It's a lifeline to my sanity.

Look forward to reading more of your posts!

Thank you for sharing your experience.

Lazaris' comments about Peny are what caused me the most doubt, as well - coupled with the fact that I saw no evidence that Peny took the teachings seriously.

Still, it took me a few months after the "Forum Storm" to come to the conclusion that the whole thing is a fake. It's not easy to admit to being fooled like that for 12 years. But better to admit it than continue it[g].

Certainly there have been other issues that raise doubt, but if not for Peny's behavior, I don't think I would have looked at the other descrepancies as closely. Jach does do a superb job in his presentation.

I'm glad that this site has helped to validate your feelings about this. That is the primary reason we put it up. And thank you for helping to validate my feelings.

[[It's a lifeline to my sanity.]]

Yes, it is crazy-making (to use a "Lazaris" term) to try to reconcile the contempt and dishonesty of the Orlando Gang with the apparent love and wisdom of Lazaris. Fortunately for me, I was/am able to distiguish between "Lazaris" and my true Spirituality - that my Spirituality exists with or without "Lazaris" mitigates the fear of losing it by rejecting "Lazaris".

I think that was the fear that Peny tried to exploit - not only in us, but in other Forum members - when she said that Katie "threw her spirituality out the window". I'm grateful that she said that, because it was the defining moment where I knew that the shame that she attempted to dump on me was not coming from a person who is in touch with reality.

[[It's so ironic one of the things in Lazaris' teachings is to never give your power away to another.]]

I was just thinking about this last night. It's one of things that kept me hanging on. I don't know if it's a clever game of playing reverse psychology of if Jach tries to appease his conscience by planting seeds within the Lazaris material that can grow into the realization that it's a sham. I mentioned somewhat sarcastically in the thread about the Florida "magicians" inability to create an elegant election that I feel that Jach may be using the Lazaris teaching as a way to express his own feelings. For example, I have reason to suspect that his politics are further to the left than the rest of the Orlando Gang (then again, whose aren't[g]), but he very rarely, if ever, posts in the political threads.

The political posts written by the Orlando Gang often contradict Lazaris. An example: In the Lazaris Interviews Book II, page 214, "Lazaris" says, "Well, indeed there is a hole in the ozone. At the South Pole, the Antarctic area, it's very thin, and in the month of October it's particularly thinner than ever. Yes, it is a real concern. Pollution of the atmosphere from various flourocarbons, and various other by-products of industry, has had a very damaging effect on that ozone layer, there is no question. ...But there are progresses being made within industry and within the particular groups of people fighting pollution"

Yet there was a whole thread in the Forum, dominated by the Orlando Gang, where they suggested that there is no thinning of the ozone layer, or, if there is, it may not be a cause for concern, and there is no evidence that it is man-made. These are people who supposedly believe that Lazaris is from the Higher Realms, has a unique perspective and is never dishonest. When I held these beliefs about Lazaris, the comments I quoted above were enough to convince me that the people who doubted that there were man-made problems with the ozone layer were wrong. Why didn't the Orlando Gang come to the same conclusion?

Given that I now believe that Lazaris is not real, I'm back with the rest of the "Consensus Reality" wondering who to believe about the ozone layer, and also feeling that the reason "Lazaris" made those statements is because it represents Jach's personal beliefs about it. Jach, as far as I remember, didn't join in that discussion.

There was another situation on the political threads where someone challenged an assertion by a sycophant by posting a Lazaris quote that directly contradicted the sycophant's point. This person was pounced on and told they didn't understand what Lazaris meant. I had heard tha same quote - on the 1999 tape - and completely agreed with the person quoting it. I thought the quote was very straighforward and couldn't understand how anyone could read anything else into it. The next day, Peny posted, claiming that she had asked Lazaris directly to clarify and that Lazaris told her the Orlando Gangs' interpretation was the correct one. This, of course, caused me to doubt not only Peny's integrity, but Jach's, since he would have to be a part of this, if only by omission - he would know whether or not Peny truly consulted with Lazaris.

And no, I wasn't so lacking in confidence that I thought I may have misunderstood the quote. But that's one of the many reasons that this type of fraud is so wicked - when trying to reconcile a lie like this, something must give - either one's own self-trust or the trust placed in the "entity".

I understand what you are saying about us having a bone to pick and I don't take offence. I certainly do have a bone to pick. Not that I want to punish the Orlando Gang, but that I have anger and have an interest in having an honest discussion about Lazaris and Concept: Synergy. People can question my motivation all I want, but whether my motivation is noble or not, the facts speak for themselves. I was a very loyal and dedicated student of the Lazaris material. I didn't wake up one day in "negative ego" and decide to throw a monkey wench into it. If not for the Orlando Gang's - and particularly Peny's - behavior, I'd still be a "friend of Lazaris". So I thank them for being so outrageous that I couldn't continue to rationalize - I didn't listen to the whispers, but I did listen to the shouts.

Thanks so much for your support. I wish you well in your process. There is a lot of support available, whether or not Lazaris is a part of it.

Thanks for joining in. I'm really happy to see some posters here, I was beginning to believe that there was no one who had the courage to post their doubts about Lazaris publicly. We get emails from people, but none to date have seemed moved to share their doubts in public. I understand the fear, though, so I'm not judging, just commenting. Anyway, I'm glad to see your post.

I'm glad that our site here provides you with some benefit. We are finding it most beneficial to have an uncensored place in which to air our angers, thoughts, observations, etc. It's even nicer to have company.

I hope you stick around, and possibly you will be moved to share some of the process you've gone through to come to your current evaluation of Lazaris. That might be interesting and helpful for others if you are inclined to share. If not, I understand, it's nice having you regardless of how you choose to participate.

I sincerely thank you for your kind words and I am glad for any help that my perspective may have given you. I appreciate your thoughts and feelings and truly honor the courageous process that you are undertaking. I really understand that "between place" where you now find yourself, having straddled that line for quite a long time.

For me, the answer may not be an absolute. It may not be possible for me to know if Jach Pursel is a fraud or not, if Lazaris exists or not but I can decide not to be controlled and manipulated by those around him/them. Like you said, "there is something very unhealthly going on there" and over time I realized that I can choose to be a part of their game(s) or not.

How well you describe the feeling of having the words "negative ego/maryr/child" being brandished like a weapon! Your words brought it all back in an instant and I truly did not know how much negative impact the forum had on me until this moment. If it had this much impact on me, a fringe participant, it must be staggering to those who have had closer involvement.

Of course the ultimate threat and fear has always been the loss of Lazaris but I don't think one can ever lose a truth (or truths)--no one has a franchise on that, not even Peny. The truths that I learned from Lazaris remain with me still. It matters less where these truths came from than the fact that they are now a living and breathing part of me.

I am so glad that you are participating here and I wish you well in your discovery process. For me, the conclusion that one arrives at doesn't matter as much as one's willingness to embrace their highest truth, whatever that may be.

I hope we have a chance to talk together again!

All the best to you,

Willow

I am very glad we are able to provide validation for each other--it was an important step in the healing process for me. As I just mentioned in my post to Seeker, the negative impact I sustained from the forum was deeper than I had realized. I can only guess about the profound impact that it must have had on you and Katie.

I must say up front, that although I respect your experience and your opinion, I am not ready to say that Lazaris and his teaching are a fake. I have come to the conclusion that, for me, it really doesn't matter if he is "really real" or not. Truth is real and, for me, his teachings contain many universal truths. Clearly, there is something amiss here and I may never know exactly what, but truth is truth wherever you may find it. Ironically, even as we search externally for answers, they ultimately lie within for each of us.

Thanks again for providing such a safe and nurturing environment. It has been a pleasure joining you here.

willow

Thank you for your thoughts. Since you mentioned that it doesn't matter for you if Lazaris is "real", I would like to offer my opinion about whether it matters. Of course I can't decide if it matters for you, but it matters a great deal to me.

Why?

First, if Lazaris is who they claim to be, then it follows that Peny is who they claim her to be and therefore I am who Peny claims me to be. The claim of Lazaris' honesty and wisdom, coupled with the claim that Peny is a particularly bright light has created fertile soil for Peny to seriously abuse many people. Due to Peny's elevated status, people will tend to internalize her abuse much more than abuse coming from a "mere mortal".

"Lazaris" says that they suppose that they could lie and say that they had lived in Atlantis or some such thing and nobody would be able to prove or disprove it. But they are dedicated to the truth. Even though that type of lie would not ostensibly do any harm. Why do they claim to be so dedicated to the truth if it doesn't matter?

Intention matters. If the intent of the Lazaris material is to make Jach and Peny rich and to prop up Peny's ego, then the effect of the material will be vastly different than if the intent is to provide loving help. If the intent were noble, then we can be sure that ulterior information is absent. But if the intent is to make more money, for example, then the material could be laden with suggestions that we need to buy more tapes, attend more workshops, than we really do. The material could be laden with suggestions that we really can't succeed without the material, in spite of the disclaimers that "Lazaris" often makes. Subtle suggestions are more powerful. The disclaimers serve to keep us off guard.

The "meditations" that Lazaris takes people on include changing one's state of consciousness to an alpha level, similar, if not equal to that of hypnosis. This allows "Lazaris" access to very deep areas of our psyche and souls. I will trust only those whose motivations I know to be pure that type of access.

We hear stories of people discovering an ongoing infidelity from their spouse and being devastated by it. Even though their spouse may have provided them with an abundance of love, time, energy, etc. Why then is it so devastating? Because it is a betrayal. It's extraordinarily disrespectful. The love, affection, etc. that may have been experienced in spite of the betrayal becomes very hollow.

The fact that the Lazaris material contains a lot of wisdom and facts creates a trust that makes discernment more difficult. We are sucked in by the reality creation techniques, etc., and are then led to believe that humanity is the result of Orion experimentation and other such nonsense.

Much - maybe most - of the Lazaris material, I agree, if factual. But Truth is not simply a series of facts. Truth is complete. Truth has no hidden agendas. Jach may mention many useful facts when claiming to channel lazaris, but if he is not really channelling, then Truth is diminished. We see politicians use facts to obscure the truth all the time (when they're not outright lying). Does that matter? I'm sure there are ample facts to justify electing Al Gore, Dubya or Adolph Hitler to office. To make a responsible descision, we need to get to the Truth.

Friends of Lazaris are encouraged to reach out to Lazaris, to ask Lazaris for help. We've been told that Lazaris will be there for us when we cross over at death. How shocking would it be to expect Lazaris to be there and they're not?

Believing that Lazaris is real fosters a trust that is unfounded (if they are not real). If Jach spoke the same words, but without claiming that they came from the Higher Realms, the information could be very useful. But it would be taken in the spirit that it is coming from an imperfect human being and subjected to the proper skeptism. The Higher Realms myth elevates the information beyond it's true meaning and value.

It seems to me that the abuse in the Forum has gotten much worse recently, and since you left. People come to the Forum believing it to be a "safe place", believing that the people in there, especially those working for Concept: Synergy, are honest and loving. Most people would not put up with that abuse for a second if not for the belief that those resposible for it are acting in their best interests. That belief stems from the belief in Lazaris' "realness". In the Forum people allow themselves to much more vulnerable than they would in other situations, based on the idea that Lazaris is who they claim to be.

Of course I can't prove or disprove Lazaris' "realness". But, for me, I have much less to lose if I'm wrong about it being a hoax than I could lose if I mistakenly accept it as real.

[[It has been a pleasure joining you here.]]

And it's a pleasure you here. Thanks for coming.

Thank you for your warm welcome--it is much appreciated! I, too hope that others, perhaps with more recent forum experience, will join us but I also understand if they do not.

I read something that you wrote on another thread (I can't remember where, sorry) about how you and other Lazaris intensive participants had grouped together for empowering rituals. That sounded so wonderful! I have worked with others before in a nurturing community-like atmosphere and it provided such clarity and such power! It certainly is tempting to think about how wonderful building an online community like that would be.

Again, posting here has been a healing experience for me, so I thank you very much.

All the best,

willow

Thank you for your excellent post. I am in complete agreement with you about the hideous impact that Concept Synergy's cultish behavior has had on trusting, well intentioned people. It is a sad, sad conclusion to come to that Peny and others are purposely misleading people for their own personal gain. Yet, from all I have seen, and I clearly have not seen as much of this as you, I believe that you are exactly right in your portrayal of events and intentions.

So where do we disagree? I don't know--I think the word "fake" was all inclusive and bothered me. I guess my point is that early on (and I'm not talking about the later years) I learned some basic truths from Lazaris--beliefs that work well for me, resonate within me, and have become an integral part of me. Does the fact that I learned them from Lazaris make them any less true? I don't think so. I don't agree that the truth is diminished if Jach is not channeling if it IS the truth to begin with. If the fact that we create our own reality is true then, it is true whether or not I learned it from Lazaris, Stuart Wilde, or Adolph Hitler--it would still be true. Maybe we will have to agree to disagree here.

What was done with these truths by Concept Synergy, et.al, is another matter entirely. I am angered and sickened by their misuse and abuse of these truths and I am grateful that you have chosen to shine a light on them here. I think is is extremely important for others to hear your perspective in order to determine what is really going on behind all the pretty words and spiritually correct phrasing. Thank you for your valiant efforts.

willow

Yes, I agree that Truth is Truth, no matter where it comes from. I have no intention of throwing the baby out with the bath water. I will not stop believing in Reality Creation simply because Lazaris talks about it.

But, I have been and will continue to research, meditate on and think about all of the concepts comprising the Lazaris Material from a perspective that it is the word of an imperfect (severely imperfect, in my opinion) human being. I refer back to the example I gave earlier about the ozone layer. If I believed that Lazaris was who they claim to be, there would be no need for discussion about that topic - the word came down from the Higher Realms. Likewise with all of the concepts - no doubt many are true, but there is significant doubt that all are true or complete.

And, of course, I won't be inviting "Lazaris" to work with me in meditation or dreams.

Since concluding that Jach is faking it, I've thought a lot about the function and dysfunction of ego. I no longer agree with Lazaris' teachings on this. I think there is a lot of wisdom there, but I disagree with some fundamental tenets of the Lazaris Material concerning this topic. But when I believed Lazaris to be real, I took there word for all of it. The issue isn't that one can't gain some insights from the material, but that the Higher Realms myth creates a tendency to defer to the Lazaris teachings in a way that we not defer to the teachings of other people.

You ask if the fact that learning something from Lazaris makes it less true. Any Truth that I accepted in a deferential manner is less true for me, because I didn't own it, because I didn't explore it as thoroughly as I would have without the deference. The Truth is still true, but it's impact on me is diminished.

In Congress, riders are often attached to bills. A bill may be proposed to provide emergency relief for children left destitute by a hurricane. Who can vote against that? A congressperson, knowing that the bill will be put through easily can attach a rider to it to provide funding for their pet project, which would never pass on it's own. Thus the good bill (analogous to the Truth) is tainted with the rider. If Lazaris is not who they claim to be, how many "riders" is Jach attaching to the Truth?

For me, the difference between believing in Lazaris' realness and not, is that I will not work with any of the nearly 200 tapes we own. If I believed that Lazaris is real, I may work with the tapes in spite of my feelings about Jach. In fact, I did work with them for several months after the "Forum Storm". As long as there are cleaner sources of the Truth - which I believe there is - I have no reason to listen to another Lazaris tape.

I enjoy reading your posts. I am very happy to be here although I must admit my world is being turned upside down right now...but then that is good and it is how most births take place isn't it?

I'm in a hurry right now, but I just wanted to say hello and I'll be posting more later.

Ted, thanks for your thoughtful posts - you give the mind a lot to feast upon!

Yes, an online community is an exciting thought. That is supposed to be what the Forum is, a community building and working together, a grand experiment, and an opportunity to have fun and grow. Well, it isn't working, we can see that.

Ted and I really miss the daily interactions though. There was a lot about the Forum that we loved for a long time.

If we do grow together as a community, and find common ground from which to grow together, support each other, and share our experiences, I think that would be really great. No gurus though, please, no gurus!! (LOL) We're all in this together.

It is wonderful to work with others. Some of the most profound magic and power I have ever experienced came from the crystal grid work we did in the Forum.

I want us to be careful here, take it slowly, get to know each other, and give ourselves time to be clear about our motivations. If we are clean, we will open the doors do great things.

So, let's tread gently, acquainted, and see what evolves.

We set up the other threads so that people who have no interest in discussing Lazaris, or who want to explore other areas of their experience and spirituality can do so.

Right now, the focus is on Lazaris. That's good for me, but I have other things on my mind and in my heart too.

So, if you are moved, please do post on other threads, and we'll see where they take us.

Be patient though, this is a process, it takes a long time to build an internet community these days.

It's so nice to have you here, and please know that there are others reading along. It will take some time, but little by little I think people might begin to feel comfortable to post. Your posting here is having more impact than you might realize. Ted and I have been pretty much on our own here for awhile as far as posting goes, but you, Seeker, and Agoldenedge have opened some doors. Your courage and honesty are most appreciated.

Let's be strong, but gentle with each other.

Katie

I just wanted to stop by and write a quick post. I guess like most of you, I am right up to my eyeballs with Christmas or Holiday preparations so it's getting more difficult to spend as much here as I would like to.

I have a lot of thoughts and feelings I would like to share. I'm hearing from new people all the time now, and there is a lot of emotion and confusion going around.

Because I have made a committment to this project of ours, opening the doors for people to ask questions, and be made aware of the experiences of others so that some of the hurt and confusion can be resolved and healed, I spend a lot of time reading and responding to private emails too.

So for those of you with whom I or Ted are not in private communication, I just wanted to make sure you know that we are here and more than willing to talk or listen.

We dont' have all the answers, and don't wish to pretend to, nor do I have any desire to set myself up as a "wise one". I'm more like a "wiseguy" (lol). I feel confident that I speak for Ted too in saying that.

I'm hoping that this site will take on a life of it's own and that you all will start to get to know each other, and trust enough to share back and forth. We all have a lot to offer and share with each other. For the moment though, I will do my part in keeping communication alive and open to the best of my ability.

I sincerely wish you both to know, Seeker, and Willow, that your posts have had a profound impact. I know that since Ted and I have been character assassinated in the Forum that a lot of people view us with a hairy eyeball. By posting, you have lent some crediblilty and support to the information we have put out. Coming from people like yourselves who don't have a possible "agenda" is a powerful incentive for a lot of people to keep questioning things. I don't blame anyone who questions or has doubts about me and Ted. We were thoroughly thrashed and discredited in the Forum. That was the intention, and it certainly has had it's effect. Take time, listen to your own inner wisdom, before placing trust in us. I encourage that.

And that is our goal, simply to hopefull inspire people to ask the questions and think the thoughts which are forbidden in the Forum, or in personal communication with C/S.

No one will be slammed or assinated for asking questions here, not even true believers, not by me or Ted anyway. If someone does come in here slamming, they will be handled appropriately. No one will be censored though, not unless everyone agrees that they need to leave. On that, we will operate by consensus.

Someone once told me that to him the measure of a healthy relationship was how many secrets were being kept, or how free each person felt to say what was on their mind.

I hope we can create a healthy environment here where we all have the freedom to express ourselves without fear of recrimination. The forum promised that, but did not deliver. We cannot promise "safety" but we will do our best to be safe ourselves, and we can only ask that you do the same, and that you trust yourself enough to know that ultimately, the only true safety is that which you provide for yourself.

Someone once said "The most dangerous lie is that which most closely resembles the truth"

I hope we will all help each other to learn to identify and recognize those dangerous lies.

My best to you all, please post!

Thank you for your committment to this valuable place of information and a refuge for those who wish to express or read opinions about Lazaris other than those sanctioned by C/S and Peny!

Willow, I think I understand where you were coming from when you said you thought the word "fake" used by Ted in his post was all too inclusive.

Ted's comment: [[Still, it took me a few months after the "Forum Storm" to come to the conclusion that the whole thing is a fake.]]

One could ask was Ted talking not only about Lazaris as an entity but the principals taught?

But I'm glad, Ted, you clarified that later in your response, because if I'm following you correctly the "whole thing is a fake" reference is to Lazaris as a seperate entity from Jach and to Peny as this exceptional spiritual being, and not necessarily the truth that is Truth that was taught in seminars and tapes.

Your point about owning truths rather than accepting them out of deference to a higher spiritual being is a good one and I liked your example of passing a congressional bill with all its riders attached to questioning what's being attached to the teachings and meditations by Jach.

I can also relate to Willow's view that even though she no longer can reconcile the discrepencies with Lazaris she still values the truths and the growth she experienced in her experience with Lazaris - regardless what opinion she may hold of him now. The truths she received then remain truths now even though she views the source differently.

Am I hearing both of you correctly? Please, straighten me out if I'm not - but leave me in one piece, please [g]

Willow's comment: [[For me, the answer may not be an absolute. It may not be possible for me to know if Jach Pursel is a fraud or not, if Lazaris exists or not but I can decide not to be controlled and manipulated by those around him/them. Like you said, "there is something very unhealthly going on there" and over time I realized that I can choose to be a part of their game(s) or not.]]

I must say, Willow, that comment means a lot to me, because it tells me I don't have to wait for a definitive answer about Lazaris to know that what is wrong in the Forum is wrong.

I can continue to question and seek my own answers, I can listen to the stories and experiences of others and I can come to my own conclusion, but to say I have to know one way or the other now before I take a stand on anything or tell myself the truth about the obvious would be an avoidance game for me.

I'm searching right now...I feel I am growing each day...still, I have not come to a place where I can say Lazaris is a fake. If I follow this logically, if I look at the obvious, if I trust my own thinking processes, the brain God/Goddess gave me...for Christ sake if I follow the Lazaris teachings themselves! observe and actually think, instead of blindly follow or defer, then I always come back to the place of this huge glitch of Lazaris' endorsement of Peny, and it just, just, just doesn't fit!!!

If it were just an endorsement, it would be one thing, and that's bad enough. What is so evil is the power that endorsement gives her to do the harm that she does.

But, you know? Even saying all that, my heart cannot make that leap yet. I loved him so much, I can't even begin to say...and I just can't let that go yet. There is sorrow and I think as it sinks in deeper there will be real grieving to be felt.

So I shall just come to this place for now on the fence, knowing I will be accepted here with this conflict within me. Knowing that it's all right if I still need to believe that Lazaris could possibly be who he claims to be. I could never take this to the Jach and Lazaris Room. And everyone reading this knows that. Now what does that tell you...or me?

I value the gift of your perceptions. I value the freedom to express mine.

Thank you.

Seeker

I'm a little short on time right now (along with most of the country, I imagine) so I can't respond to your posts and quickly as I would like. Just wanted to let you know that I haven't dropped off the planet and I look forward to continuing the great discussions we have been having soon.

Peace to all,

Thanks for being so thoughtful in writing to let us know you are still here with us.

I think you do speak for all of us, time is a real crunch right now.

No pressure to post, we will all do what we can in our own time, assuming we survive yet another holiday madness season :).

Thoughtful gestures like yours are the building blocks for the community you mentioned you would like to see grow here.
I'm quite hopeful about that right now myself.

Have a blast, and may we all stay Merry and Bright.

Katie opened a new thread Post (2) as a continuation of this one as this thread is getting a little long. So when we meet again after the holidays you might want to check out the new thread to see what's going on there!

Soullover

IP: Logged

I am copying your post and moving it and my response to the thread "please post2(too).

This one is taking too long to open.

Welcome! And see you there.