The reason "Teachers" seem to make you feel so good is because they tell you what you already know. It feals right, it makes sense because you already know it is true.

Love people, but don't ever fool yourself into thinking that someone is more important than you or is more spiritaly advanced then you.

One of the hardest things I had to do was to forgive myself. Anyone externaly can forgive you, and for some people they need that so that they can forgive themselves. But by going to someone else you give them a power over you. That of withholding forgivness. That is a trap.
The other hardest thing was learning to love myself. It goes hand in hand or maybe is a second step to forgiving yourself. So many people search the world looking for love. When they carry it with themselves all the time.

I've discovered searching for the truth is a lot like trying to find something you already have. Like trying to catch your shadow, just accept that its there and stop worrying! ;)

But enough babbleing ;)

XOX

I fully agree with everything you are saying.

Over the past few months the one thing I've learned is how much energy and time is wasted in following others, or allowing someone else to teach me.

What you say is invaluable to all of us who are sincere seekers. So many of us have given our power to those who claim to have some special fast track to wisdom and enlightenment. Believing that is a counter-productive set-up.

You are so right that we carry the love and wisdom right inside ourselves, and the quickest way to it is to stand still for a minute, honor ourselves, and trust our own inner voice.

I'm beginning to think that this is the next wave of "new age" thinking. As Van Morrison wrote "No Masters, No Teachers, No Gurus".

I hope we are seeing the end of the days where everyone who has a flash of insight or a warm feeling gives it the name of an entity, or becomes an authority and starts writing a book. Better yet, the end of the days when anyone thinks it's important to pay to listen to the voices of others.

Certainly there are those who hold the shining light of example, but isn't it interesting that they are rarely the ones giving the workshops? The truly inspirational are those who lead magnificent lives, and who love themselves and others passionately but with no fanfare.

How true what you say about love and self-forgiveness, and loving others, but not giving our power to them.

Anyway, thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts. Very nice stuff and a breath of fresh air.

What is the "Tao te Ching"? I'm not familiar.

"Jesus, Buddha, everyone without personal motivation has said... 'I am that you are.'
And as soon as people started to see things for themselves as truth, they took their leave, so as not to become dictators of others lives.
A way is one of guidance, not control. True Love comes from the soul, not from fear.
The only way out is through, and that way is clear to you, and you alone."

Yes, I agree. Those who are really interested in guiding don't demand or want control. The problem is in a mind controlled situation that people don't really get it that they are being controlled, or that they are remaining in the group once they do recognize the control out of fear.

One thing I learned, through my own experience, and my interactions with others in the Lazaris cult is that we were (are) all in fear, fear of losing Lazaris, of being negatively judged, of not being good enough to gain or keep the approval of the "stellar ones". The fear is palpable in Friends of Lazaris, and the closer they are to the hierarchy, the more fearful they are.

Once I was able to see that, it wasn't too difficult to start waking up to what was going on, because as you say true love comes from the Soul, so I had the information, love, support and guidance I needed to start unraveling the whole mess. The big thing was to take the step of listening to my Soul, and my Soul only. Once I did that, the message was clear.

Ultimately, I'm happier to look back and realize that my fear was based on something I could do something about.

Worse when your fear is of becoming exposed as a liar, fraud, controller, and manipulator. That must be a really terrible fear. Don't you think?

Very nice to hear from you.

Katie

We have to, as a people, stop 'being nice' and start 'getting real', when being nice means smiling as we drink poison.

And the only way to break the cycle is to expose these frauds in time, before they get too big... A tree starts out as a seed, and would take 2 fingers to crush it, eventually you need lightning, or a chainsaw.

But martyring this fool would give him exactly what he wants: A way out.

Better to just turn away, and leave him to sit and ponder his lunacies, and then eventually break down.

Peace... and good luck.
Logic can be used as a sword, as well, but only if it isn't personal.
Otherwise no one will listen... they will be too afraid.

Thanks for writing, and wow, what writing!
There is a lot in what you have to say that really resonates. I am familiar with the Tao, I didn't know it was called Tao Te Ching though. Thanks for explaining that.
There is something so wonderful about the ancient wisdoms which have survived the march of centuries and still provide us with nourishing food for our souls. I have not studied the Tao, but have over the years been touched by a phrase or passage. As you say:

"When you feel truth, you feel it in your whole body, and when you walk away from it, you don't need to remember ever having seen it, it's still there, all around you, in everything."

This is the way of truth, without a doubt. I agree that we don't need to consciously remember it, but I also believe that the feeling is unforgettable, a touchstone against which we can measure the value of all which is served to us as wisdom. Ultimately we can develop a clearer and cleaner sense of discrimination in evaluating all which comes to us, no matter how gloriously the platter is served up, we can, through the exercise of discrimination, extract the delightful morsels of wisdom and discard the garnish.
This, in my opinion, is the key.

"so we have to seek into the mysterious, which does exist, or how could an existance that goes on to infinite detail, exist, it's a mystery to imagine that even our minds are created things, that tells you something about trusting words."

Here you say so much. I have learned a lot about the mind over the past year since I removed my own from an insidious influence.
Yes, it is a created thing, and yes, the words of others can serve to create our thoughts for us, easily, if we are to rely upon others to provide our "truths" for us.

Who but ourselves should be the ultimate creators of our minds? Again, that is the quest of the true seeker, to be the ultimate judge of truth, the Universal Truth which you mention.

I had an interesting debate in a New Age thread about Universal Truth, a concept which was challenged by a mysterious poster posing as a concerned individual, but actually functioning to challenge and debate my assertion that there is in fact such a thing as Universal Truth. It is the mark of a controller to put forth the concept of a relative truth. If there is no truth, then everything is true, and one can just as easily invest in that which brings a false sense of temporary comfort or righteousness, rather than that which brings the profound bliss and security of the eternal. Those who have drunk even a drop from that fathomless well are not easily satisfied with even a lifetime supply of Coke. It bubbles, it fizzes, it refreshes and addicts us, but it isn't the Real Thing, the thing we can never forget.

You say:"It's those that need others to support their truths that have none of their own... they aren't giving you love, they are looking into mirrors, that is all. You become a possession, and possessions must be kept in order.
This is terrible... but eventually, you can't even blame the one who started it all, because he just becomes a mirror for everyone else, as well."

Yes, I have realized this over and over again. When I, or anyone is seeking the agreement of others to support my truth of the moment, we are functioning in the misery of delusion, and misery loves and seeks company. When anyone, myself included, has the strong need or urge to convince others to think or believe a certain way, that is such a red flag for me. The Truth carries with it such a sense of security that it needs no defense or agreement. Just as no one would get into a debate with another over the fact of their own existance, a fact which is indisputable and clearly apparent, why would anyone have the need or desire to debate the Truth? We know it when we see it, and don't feel compelled to convince anyone. The Truth simply IS.

"The fact that religions have sprung up all over the world, and have connections between them, without any relationships, tells something of truth. Truth is universal, and no one is more special than another in their ability to understand it. Anyone that says differently is a salesman, truth exists without monetary value, as it is behind everything."

Yes, yes, yes! It seems that behind most religious groups is more a quest for power and money than a quest for the Truth. By claiming a special insight, or unique access to the Truth, all religions, channelers, psychics, etc. become nothing more than cheap peddlers of that which is already possesed by all of us. Their job becomes blinding us to the fact that we already own what they are selling. This is the Truth which has come to me so profoundly out of my true desire to uncover the "truth" of Lazaris. There is no need for a "Lazaris" or any other teacher or guide who makes it necessary to jump through even the tiniest of hoops to access their alleged assistance. The assistance of the Universe is surrounds us and permeates us. It is ours for the taking in the silence of our minds, through the unquenchable desire of our souls. Everything else is yammer yammer, to steal a phrase from the "Entity".

"The world has a lack of truth, a lack of anything sacred, it's all been ground into the dirt and paved with cement. It will take a lot of effort to seek it, and no one man or woman has all the answers. "

I'm not sure I completely agree with the statement that it will take a lot of effort to seek it. Maybe it will take a lot of effort to find it through the noise, but I believe we all seek it as a function of our existance, just as we breath effortlessly without having the need to understand the function of breathing, as you stated in your earlier post. Maybe we all need to stop trying so hard to just be. Isn't that the ultimate message of the Tao? It's one of the things I've come to hate so much about the whole "Lazaris" trip, there's always more "work" to do, more tapes, more techniques, more rituals, more seminars, more noise and distraction. Long ago I jokingly "established" a religion of my own,
which I call STFU (shut the f...up). I'm beginning to believe that might have been my most brilliant joke to date. Wanna join? The only charge is your silence. (LOL)

"We have to, as a people, stop 'being nice' and start 'getting real', when being nice means smiling as we drink poison."

Beautifully, and succinctly put. The key is to know when we are being poisoned. Life can be so toxic that we have become accustomed to being sick. We sometimes mistake poison for medicine.

"And the only way to break the cycle is to expose these frauds in time, before they get too big... A tree starts out as a seed, and would take 2 fingers to crush it, eventually you need lightning, or a chainsaw."

Maybe. It isn't mine to crush this "tree" except where it has grown to block out my own view of the sun. Maybe it will come down branch by branch as others begin to crave an unobstructed view. My "mission" is only to invite others to share my view should they be interested in knowing that there is something beyond the branches of the tree. Even the mightiest of trees die in their own time. Lightning can strike at any time.

"But martyring this fool would give him exactly what he wants: A way out.

Better to just turn away, and leave him to sit and ponder his lunacies, and then eventually break down."

Fool is too good a word for him (them). Being a Fool myself, I bristle at sharing the fun with those who I don't consider worthy of the privelege. At any rate, he (they) can have their way out, or ponder, or break down or not. I'm not in the least concerned one way or the other. I am only concerned with being free of their influence.

This site is for me a way of asserting and celebrating that they are, and hoping to share the celebration with others should anyone come along.

Having spouted all those words of "wisdom and insight", I feel compelled to state that I am only here clearing the brush, so I can continue to improve my view and my spiritual environment. I've had glimpses of an unspeakable beauty, only glimpses. I don't want anything in my way anymore.

Thank you so much for writing my Friend. I think I know you, and I'm very very glad you have chosen to visit. I hope you stick around. If you are who I think you are, I have missed you.

Love,

Katie

I've enjoyed your posts in here very much.

I think you've hit on something here about the lack of trust in established religions spawning snakecharmers. Though I'm not sure that this contempt of Truth is really that new - if the established religions were providing more Truth, the snakecharmers soil wouldn't be so fertile.

In a way, it may be that these developments are indicative of the grace of Humankind - that we will continue to seek the Truth even after we've been scammed over and over. And that, I believe, is the weak link. There are many who are seeking and will continue to seek the Truth and we won't be stopped by these opportunistic cynics.

The charlatans will never succeed long-term with True Seekers. All dictators fail. Perhaps we are in a state of growth, as Humanity, where our rejection of traditional religions is akin to an adolescent's rejection of their parent's values. Often, the first step in the rejection is to cling to values that are even more destructive. But then the adolescent moves beyond merely rejecting the old and establishes their own healthy values as they move in to their adulthood. These healthy values may or may not jibe with the old ones, but they're healthier because they have been nurtured consciously by the individual.

Please excuse my undying optimism :-)

I'm 24 years old I consider myself a spiritual being and, as you say, truth seeker. I recently got involved with someone who introduced the Lazaris material to me as a large part of her metaphisical practic and spiritual beliefs. Upon first listen to that charming little accent I was impressed at the content and the eloquence and humor with which it was presented. I felt almost right away that it was inproving the way in which I handeled a romantic relationship. I felt happier and more secure than I had in a long time. But I started to notice a very significant change in my thought process. I started to defer my doubts to the beliefs that were being programmed in me. I was catious right away of the word programming being thrown around the way it is in the Lazaris material. In retrospect I think brainwashing would be a better term. But the trust that my girlfriend had for it eased my suspicions. I wanted to show her that I had an open mind.
The more I opened myself up to the techniques and beliefs of the Lazaris material the more I had to repress my feelings of having my insecurities and my weaknesses preyed upon. That was all "negative ego" right? What created the most doubt for me was the Nov. election. My girlfriend believed that other than voting she was somehow magically in control of the election. I couldn't even have an intelligent coversation about possible solutions for Florida because she was convinced that it all came down to the Magicians and "how much work they had to do." I still clung to the relationship because frankly she was cute, I was lonely and there were some successes I was noticing with my music creativly and in business. But I wonder if it is not so much reality creation, which I still find to be a facinating concept, than manipulation of perception. I just started to see myself as a more creative, loving person only it was through the eyes of Lazaris.
Needless to say we broke up after about three months but Lazaris had made its impact. I felt that I had done something extremely wrong, that I was passing by a spiritual partner in life. The "what if's" were taking over and I considered trying to patch things up. Before that would happen I wanted to be sure that the Lazaris material was something I could be comfortable with so I did a search on the internet and found the Concept:Synergy homepage. Again I was delighted at the tape transcripts I read. I imagined that funny accent and started to internalize more of the beliefs that I was convinced would do so much for my spirituality. I had an overwhelming feeling that this is what I had been looking for maybe all of my life. Somehow, amidst all of this there was still an ounce of me that wanted a second opinion.
A co-worker showed me a more thourough search engine and I found the "Lazaris: Friend or fraud" article. I almost couldn't read it. I am grateful for the fact that you came forward with your experinces. I was just beginning to plan when I was going to go to my first seminar but when I heard of the gestapo tactics used to keep its members in order I never want to hear about Lazaris again. I feel betrayed and I'm getting off of this spiritual rollercoaster.
I need to learn to deal with my insecurities not avoid and defer as you so beautifully put it. The Lazaris material was responisble for one of the most shallow and vacuous relationships I have ever had with another human being. The sympathy I feel for her is deep and I pray that she will see the truth behind the gaudy packaging and confusing imagery. If there are any credible sources for spiritual growth I would appreciate any recommendations. Thank you for your time.

I needed that,

I'm having a tearful day, and your post brought tears to my eyes too.

I don't have time to respond indepth to your very open and honest post, but I wanted to say thank you, and make a quick comment.

Among many very interesting statements you made, this one really stood out.

"But I wonder if it is not so much reality creation, which I still find to be a facinating concept, than manipulation of perception."

I could not find a better way to say that. You express my thoughts on this perfectly.
Manipulation of perception, what an incredibly appropriate phrase!

I'll be back later, I'm off to visit my friend who lost her house yesterday.

It's so good to see you here, and I'm very glad you posted. I hope you stick around, but even if not, I'm glad you got that off your chest. I could feel the relief!

All the best,

I'm glad you were able to get that off your chest. It does feel good to be able to talk about it and to know that we're not alone in our feelings.

I liked your expression, "manipulation of perception". I think there is a lot of that going on. I remember twice during the time that we worked with the Lazaris Material that we received an unexpected check in the mail for several hundred dollars. I immediately credited the Lazaris material and Lazaris himself with these successes. Well, last week we received another unexpected check in the mail and neither Katie nor I have done any of the Lazaris techniques in months :-)

You asked about credible sources of spiritual information. I hesitate to provide an answer because I don't wish to proselytize. But you did ask, so... The most credible source I've found is Paramahansa Yogananda, the first Indian guru to come to the West. He wrote a wonderful and inspiring book called, Autobiography of a Yogi. His organization is Self-Realization Fellowship. SRF has three magnificent sites in Southern California: the Mother Center, on Mount Washington in LA; the Lake Shrine in Pacific Palasades; and the Hermatage and Retreat House in Encinitas. There is a short discussion about Yogananda in the Masters, Gurus and Teachers section of this Forum.

Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us.

I was just playing catch up on your site, and saw this that you wrote. And while I am at work right now, and need to keep a straight face, it almost brings tears to my eyes, so excuse me for answering to it so long after you wrote it...

Katie said: This is the Truth which has come to me so profoundly out of my true desire to uncover the "truth" of Lazaris. There is no need for a "Lazaris" or any other teacher or guide who makes it necessary to jump through even the tiniest of hoops to access their alleged assistance

In my group, we were often told that we would be tested. Being tested could mean several different things. It could mean that our teacher would target our known weaknesses to test how we reacted to it, and if we reacted like it was still a weakness then we would be punished. Or, it could mean that our teacher would continue to reject us to test how badly we wanted to be her student. Both were painful. Both, we were told was necessary. If we didnt pass the tests we would no longer be allowed to be part of hte group. Your statement here is so incredibly true. Would a loving God run those kinds of tests on us? I dont think so...

Malene <--- Taking a deep breath to hide the tears, dam I am getting emotional these days.

Hello,

A few years ago I got clobbered in the forum, and witnessed a similar shattering experience happen to another member at the same time. When this other member apologized, that apologizing was an extended ritual of humiliation. Not wanting to subject myself to that, yet not wanting to burn any bridges with Lazaris or CS, I made a perfunctory apology to all and left the forum for good. All this occurred within a couple of weeks of joining.

Just before this new year, I was wishing I could resolve the very mixed feelings I've had during the years since that incident. I still worked with the Lazaris Material, but continued to have disturbed feelings about the forum incident. How ready this "spiritually evolved" group was to anger, to see things only in the most twisted negative light, and to be so very unforgiving. Unfortunately, I assumed that I must have been in the wrong somehow, but could never could figure out why so many people got so upset. You know the drill, all those loving entities, along with Lazaris's mouth piece, plus his best and brightest bud, Peny were so hurt and so outraged!

Now it's quite clear to me that my experience was not an isolated event but typical forum behavior. The incongruence between the "Love and Peace" of Lazaris's communications and Peny, Jach, and the group's behavior was very confusing for me. But I thought the material was excellent, so I kept buying and listening to tapes.

I always wondered after my incident on the Domination Forum, did the offended members all post each other acknowledging that they were in "victim", "martyr", "blame", "self pity"? Guess not. And why so much rage simmering in their magical mists? Accountability and responsibility -- those are only for the offender to claim in their own illusion.

I got on my road to resolution when I discovered this site a couple of weeks ago. Reading Katie and Ted's experience and the many posts helped me get the whole picture and speeded up my processing. I'm posting so that others who have their doubts about Lazaris in association with this destructive forum will have more validation for their feelings. Yes, something is very wrong. No one needs to have mixed feelings about spiritual teachings. As Ted said, I want a cleaner spirituality. This whole thing has truly redirected me back inward, solo.

Cutting loose of working with Lazaris feels really freeing. I wish that clearing my mind were as easy as clearing out all the tapes, books and videos. They were in almost every room in my house, and in my car.

But concerning the question, is Lazaris "real", I have a question. What do you think about Lazaris saying your name, eyes shut, when giving crystals during the crystal ceremony?

Lorca

Welcome! I'm happy that this site has been instrumental in your resolution process.

You asked, [[But concerning the question, is Lazaris "real", I have a question. What do you think about Lazaris saying your name, eyes shut, when giving crystals during the crystal ceremony?]]

Everytime I've been to a seminar, we were instructed to tell "Lazaris" out first name when we went to recieve our crystal. I always thought this was somewhat strange - why wouldn't "Lazaris" know us by our energy? Especially those of us who had been working with "Lazaris" for a long time, inviting them into our dreams, etc.

I have heard of one or two instances where "Lazaris" said the person's name without them saying it first. This could be a carnival trick where the people sitting on the stage signal Jach in some way. I've seen them converse with Jach on occasion. They could tell him, for example that the fifth person coming up is John, or that Jean will be the next person after Mary.

I've never experienced "Lazaris" telling me something really profound and personal during the "crystal ceremony" - something that they could not have known. It's always been very general, like "you're progressing beautifully". Who's going to argue with that[g]?

Jach may indeed have a certain amount of intuition. The Silva Mind Control method claims to improve people's psychic power. Maybe it really does[g]. But having a better-than-average sense of intuition doesn't prove that "Lazaris" is a being from the Higher Realms.

There are a few questions that may never be answered. We may never figure out how they able to pull off certain stunts. But if "Lazaris" were real, I would expect there to be many things that couldn't be explained by logic.

To me, the resolution is in that, real or not, Lazaris is not someone in whom I wish to place my trust or invest my time and spirituality. I don't need to be convinced beyond any doubt that it's a fake in order to reject it. I would need be to be convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that it is real to embrace it. It will take much more than a few carny trick to do that.

Thanks so much for writing and sharing.

First, let me say that I'm sorry you had that experience in the Forum, and I'm very familiar with the feelings of confusion it left you in. With each new post or email like yours I am more grateful that we put up this site. I keep saying this, but it feels really good to share with others who have had similar experiences to our own. Certainly not because we aren't aware that ours wasn't the only barbeque in the Forum, but because it helps to share, and not feel alone in our thoughts and reactions to being skewered by people who we once respected, admired, and even felt love for.

As to your question about whether or not the Gangsters post back and forth to each other, or hold each other responsible for being in self-pity, negative ego, etc. I have theories on that, and a bit of heresay, but no hard facts. Unless one of them gets a conscience some day, I suppose we will never know. I do believe that sooner or later we will get more inside information. Someone has to crack eventually I think.

My theory is that the more one knows about the true origins of "Lazaris", the more intimate they have been with the evolution of C/S, and remains within the inner sanctum, the less exposed they are to being placed on the barbeque pit. I believe that those who have observed and continued to play as the gameboard evolved mutually honor an unspoken code of silence. I believe that they have learned that if they want to continue to enjoy the status, ego strokes and other benefits of being among the stellar, they had better keep their mouths shut.

I sometimes wonder if even Jach, Peny, and Micheall ever actually admit to each other that truth. I have no doubts whatsoever that they know the truth.

I'm quite sure thought that outside of a very few people, everyone who interacts with the bright star Peny gets their fair share of her acid tongue. Someone told us of witnessing a public humiliation of one of the inner group. I think it's the trade off these people are willing to make to be a part of this mocked up band of enlightened beings. One thing is for sure, they rarely hold each other publicly accountable for any signs of "negative ego" etc. It has happened once or twice though, to my knowledge. Lots of people put up with endless crap to keep their jobs, even crappy jobs that don't set one up as above and beyond everyone else.

Ted and I have written about the mysterious and sudden disappearances of C/S staff over the years. I guess eventually even those within the inner circle get to the point where they can't stand it anymore. It will be damned interesting to hear those stories when they finally come out, and I do strongly believe that one by one, they will come out. Those of us who have the guts to come out and speak up are laying the groundwork for that to happen. That is why I always encourage people to tell their stories when they are ready, even if they feel they don't have much to contribute, I believe that each contribution is an invaluable gem. We just never know which word, thought, or story of ours will hit the mark with another who is hanging by a thread.
I do also suspect though that C/S employees have signed confidentiality agreements which might force them to keep quiet. Time will tell.

I also have a theory that the more sincere and honest a follower is, the more likely they are to finally face the facts and bow out. I also believe that the anger level at the point of leaving is in direct proportion to the degree of honesty and sincerity of the person when they got involved. Those looking for quick fixes, someone to think for them, or just like all the feel good crap area the least likely to face the facts.
After a while, anyone with any integrity whatsoever will have to crumble in the face of all the inconsistancy and abuse.

You said: "I'm posting so that others who have their doubts about Lazaris in association with this destructive forum will have more validation for their feelings. Yes, something is very wrong. No one needs to have mixed feelings about spiritual teachings. As Ted said, I want a cleaner spirituality. This whole thing has truly redirected me back inward, solo."

Thank you for that. There is that integrity I'm referring to. It takes a certain amount of courage to admit even to ourselves that we have been being hoodwinked and manipulated, it takes more courage to write about it publicly, but it's an act of generosity to do so. Most of us here don't even know each other, other than through our interactions here, but there is a sense of responsibility and caring for each other that is really gratifying.

And, yes, something is wrong, very wrong, when we have these nagging thoughts and feelings about teachings which are presented to us as coming from a higher love and wisdom. If it were, it would never feel so bad, but of course, by C/S reasoning, we are all being led around by our negative egos, and it is that which is causing us confusion and pain. So, lets not think for ourselves kids, lets just let Peny North and the Gangsters diagnose the state of our consciousness and souls, and lets bow down and kiss their butts in gratitude every time they so wisely inform us how screwed up we are. Let's just ignore our own inner voice, and defer to their infallible wisdom. Yeah, let's get some real spiritual muscle developed by letting the serve as judges and jury to our souls, rather than to trust ourselves and our own spiritual insights. I think not. But, that is the way of cults, isn't it? To train us not to think for ourselves, and to remain in a constant state of imbalance and confusion.

Oh, yes, and the freedom! It is incredibly freeing to have that monkey off our backs.
Every day I realize more and more how oppressive all that BS of Lazaris' is. We can never have a set back or failure without beating ourselves up for being somehow flawed, even our successes are not good enough successes. Lazaris constantly promises that by learning and using the techniques we will be able to elegantly and easily manifest a reality beyond our dreams, so every day that we wake up and face a reality which still has problems or dilemmas, we have to believe that it is because we are not quite good enough. Give me a break. It's just so great to be able to look at my life and relationships without wondering what I am doing wrong every time something doesn't go exactly the way I hoped it would.

As to the name thing during the Crystal ceremony, I can't give you a definite answer to that one. I know that Lazaris has never spoken my name first, but he has done for others. So, why not all of us? If you ever read up on the tricks used by showman psychics, you would know that there are a million ways that could happen. If he knew your name, he would know mine wouldn't he?

I remember when I used to go to trade shows and people all had on name tags, that I would walk up to someone and say "hello..(whoever), and 9 times out of 10 they would respond with shock and ask me how I knew their name. I would just laugh and say "I'm psychic". Do you know how many people believed that, and never realized that they had their name written across their chest? The same now with caller ID when I answer the phone "Hi..(whoever), and they just about fall off their chair wondering how I knew who is calling. Again, when they ask, I tell them I'm psychic. I have a brother who still hasn't figured it out. (LOL).

Is there a picture of you in the forum, do any of the Gangsters know you? Have you bought anything from the back table? Hell, when you come in and sign in someone knows who you are. What is to stop anyone from pointing you out to Jach? I know that Jach has a very great mind, he remembers a lot of things, and given his business, I'm sure he makes many many mental notes. I also know that Jach "peeks". He opens his eyes when writing on the blackboard for example. Now why would "Lazaris" need Jach's eyes to write on the blackboard, if he doesn't need Jach's eyes to recognize people?

Is there anyone writing here who has had a private consultation? I'm dying to hear of one instance in which "Lazaris" actually gave a person some solid information about themselves which couldn't be explained by sleight of hand. I'm more interested to hear stories where "Lazaris" was dead wrong in a consultation. Any one?

Anyway, thanks for writing,Lorca, thanks very very much. It means more than I could ever express in words. I hope you stick around and continue to share your thoughts.
It's great to meet you.

All the best,

Katie

Thanks for your thoughtful feedback about the use of names during the crystal ceremony. First, I agree that whether or not Lazaris is "real" or not isn't the issue. I no longer trust Lazaris or C.S. and am done with the whole thing. However, as you might imagine, I'm reviewing many aspects of my past belief and involvement with Lazaris and CS. I have found some very solid explanations for the dynamics of mind control and cults on these pages. But I am trying to make sense of a lot of thoughts, feelings and personal experiences.

The idea of "love (perceived) as Lazaris" is very appropriate. I can imagine the same thing happening for Christians experiences of Jesus, Buddhists experiences of Buddhas, and so on. In the crystal ceremony, Lazaris did not say my name everytime, but enough to make an impression. One thing is that I never felt comfortable during the crystal ceremonies. I'd see people being smiling, loving and close wth Lazaris. I felt awkward, because I wasn't filled with those feelings, like I didn't have enough heart. Then during those brief interactions, my heart chakra would often be a focal point, some words about it or an energy healing gesture with the hands.

But, as you say, there are some questions that will never be answered. It isn't that important whether or not they are answered, because there is a fundamental wrongness permeating the whole Lazaris scene.

I have gotten a sense of myself having been addicted to following the material. And that I gave up my spiritual authority inspite of seeing myself as an independent thinker. I feel that I allowed this to happen because the material emphasized things like individuality, becoming more yourself, and using the "tools" (tapes, meditations, etc.) to enhance one's own relationship with higher forms of consciousness. Probably the same things that attracted others who wanted to grow, but were turned off by teachings involving a "master" and directives concerning areas like sex, food or clothing.

Thanks again for your response, and for maintaining this site. It is just what I needed to get back on my own path.

Lorca

I had two private phone consultations. Someone else I know put in a request at the same time but didn't get one. Oddly I got a card scheduling one for a year and a half in the future, then another for a second consutation three years in the future.

How were my consultations? Well there was some good advice, but then there was the attribution by Lazaris of an undesirable situation to a past life experience that he told me about. So I followed his advice on how to resolve the problem by doing a meditation that he suggested for working with that past life. Do I have any memory of that lifetime -- no, but I have had a few past life memories on my own. After doing the remedial meditation many times, I was still not able to eliminate the problem. Then I was left feeling, I didn't do it enough times before I was weary of it, or maybe I didn't really, really want to change things. Never thought that there might have been something wrong with the reading until recently. I've had readings from a couple of psychics over the years, and the results were usually mixed. I did just what I had been doing with the Lazaris material, focusing on what seemed pertinent.

I saw Lazaris/Jach "peek" once when he was putting a music tape on for a meditation, also saw him looking at a watch. The eyes closed or open stuff is perplexing for me when I try to figure it out. I'm not dwelling on it, just curious.

You both mentioned that "Lazaris" peeks sometimes. In all fairness, "Lazaris" has said that they use the "channel's" eyes on occasion to see things like paintings or to check the time. I don't think they're trying to hide that fact. It would seem logical that they would need the use of physical sensory instruments to see objects that are purely physical - though I do think a good painting does transcend physicality[g].

We were also told why Lazaris never stands. Maybe its really about how hard it is to walk around with your eyes shut. An open eyed channel like Ramtha gets to walk around.

I'm wondering, if Lazaris is real, and it's all illusion, what is purely physical?

A lot of what you have said on this site has come into play in my consideration of whether or not Lazaris is "real", and I'm leaning toward "unreal" at this point.

Best to you,

Welcome! I am so glad to see you here.

You wrote: [[ I have gotten a sense of myself having been addicted to following the material. And that I gave up my spiritual authority inspite of seeing myself as an independent thinker. I feel that I allowed this to happen because the material emphasized things like individuality, becoming more yourself, and using the "tools" (tapes, meditations, etc.) to enhance one's own relationship with higher forms of consciousness. Probably the same things that attracted others who wanted to grow, but were turned off by teachings involving a "master" and directives concerning areas like sex, food or clothing. ]]

Wow, I think you really hit it right on the head! And that's what makes this so insidious. It's one thing to be outright assaulted, it's another to be seduced and I have come to believe that that's what Jach/Lazaris does. It slowly robs you of your own power while giving you the illusion you are claiming and developing it.

"Addiction" is a good word to describe the hold of our relationship with Lazaris. I am now more able to see just how dependent many people are on Lazaris' guidance all the while thinking they are developing a greater sense of trust in themselves.

There are some posts on one of these threads on the hypnosis techniques Jach/Lazaris uses in the meditations - that the meditations are just that, hypnotherapy sessions and I made at least one.

But for the past several weeks my grieving and sorrow of letting go what I thought I had with Lazaris had reached a new depth. Most of my focus previously had been on the Forum members, Peny, Jach...but while there were what I called some "inconsistencies" in Lazaris' teachings, and irresponsibility and lack of character in his endorsement of Peny as this exceptional enlightened being, I had not believed he had ever directly out and out lied to me.

But when I realized through my research that his meditations followed the structure of a hypnotherapy session as defined and practiced by hypnotherapists I was absolutely devastated.

Only now can I publically share these thoughts and feelings...I needed to distance myself from them for a while, because what I now knew was too much for me to accept...for it goes beyond the meditations actually being hypnotherapy to Lazaris lying about it.

I remember sitting in a seminar where Lazaris, himself, brought up the subject of hypnosis. In that seminar he said that they NEVER practiced hypnosis on us and NEVERwould without our direct and conscious permission.

"They" further went on to explain that when someone was trying to hypnotize you they spoke in low monotone voice and spoke slower and slower as the hypnosis went on. "They" said that's why they always interjected jokes and used humor to make sure we weren't lulled into a hypnotic trance by their voice, and why they always varied their speed when they talked and interjected irregular pauses instead of rhythmic regular ones.

While that's true, those techniques are used in many cult sessions by speakers in their lectures and Lazaris didn't do that in his talks, he then carried that over to include his meditations and offered that as proof that he never hypnotized us ever before.

But a hypnotherapy session is NOT defined by those characteristics...although they may or may not be included. A hypnotherapy session follows the structure of a Lazaris "meditation" or rather the Lazaris "meditation" is based on the steps of a hypnotherapy session - the whole process of inducing a trance or altering your consciousness, creating a sense of safety, the guided visualizations, the options of choice within the visualizations, leading you to experience other aspects of yourself or other consciousnesses, the method of ending the session, the whole spiel is what a hypnotherapy session looks like.

I previously did not know that.

You can go to a hypnotherapist and get the same thing, albeit WITHOUT, the promise of eternal love and personal intimacy with the benevolent being who is leading the session...if the hypnotist is ethical that is.

So at this seminar, Lazaris then asks for our permission to hypnotize us...(as if he had never hypnotized us before)...so that "they" might implant a suggestion in our subconscious for a very powerful reality creating technique. (I am just floored every time I think about this...I can tell you this show of asking permission was a major trust builder for me!)

Of course, presumably everyone in that room said yes in their minds, because Lazaris then took us on a "hypnosis" session...giving us the option to quit any time (which is another quality of a hypnosis session). He used the monotone voice and the long rhythmic pauses between words and the slowing down of speed, which was markedly different from the "meditations" he normally led us on.

The thing that sticks with me the most is that after the session was done, Lazaris said, "Now you know what it's like to be hypnotized and now you can tell if someone is trying to hypnotize you."

And wasn't I just so grateful to have a friend look out for me like he did?

It took me years and years later, this board and visiting various hypnosis websites to realize what hypnosis really is...and not the crap that Lazaris fed me.

Lazaris used a half truth - the characteristics of hypnosis that unscrupulous speakers use while lecturing - to intentionally mislead and deceive us into believing that if these particular characteristics are not in a "guided meditation" then it is not hypnosis. AND he then gave us an "example" of what he claimed a hypnosis session was to throw us off track from the truth under the guise of empowering us to know the truth!!! Oh my god!!!

Now how can I twist that one around to keep my belief that Lazaris might be real -- whether real as in a real entity or real as in a genuine trustworthy being? I can't and the tears fall...

I don't know why Jach/Lazaris chose to bring up hypnosis at that time, except maybe the question arose as to "their" methods. But I do know that whole scenario was a deliberate deception and this deception was carried out under the pretense of showing respect for us and concern for our ability to discern.

I am a believer in the power of hypnotherapy to heal - now that I know what it is, and evidently I've been doing it for a long, long time - over a decade's worth. I've experienced great healing in those sessions with Lazaris. What pisses the hell out of me is that NO ONE EVER ASKED ME FOR MY PERMISSION TO BE HYPNOTIZED.

I gave Lazaris permission to take me on a meditation, not hypnotized and even according to him there's a difference!

And not only did Lazaris NOT call a spade a spade, but he went out of his way to call it something else.

The unethicalness of it all!!! No one has a right to hypnotize you without your permission, and Jach/Lazaris knows this...that's why "they" made such a big show out of asking permission in this huge charade of honest exchange and information.

Peny, Jach and the Forum gang often accuses ex-Forum members as being angry people...no shit. We got reasons.

We are all on a journey of discovery, I think, Lorca. And I do thank you for sharing yours. I want you to know that your above quote makes it easier for me to be a little more compassionate towards myself and perhaps a little easier to forgive myself for having given so much of my trust and power away for so long.

I look forward to reading more of your posts. May your journey of reclaiming your power be gentle...I know reading the words of other seekers here brings me great comfort.

Thanks for your in-depth discussion about the use of hypnosis in the Lazaris material. I also remember one seminar, back in 1989 I think, where "Lazaris" asked our permission to hypnotize us.

It is interesting and important to see how insidious they are. They define the criteria we should use to determine whether a "channeled entity" is real - they tell us what to look out for regarding hypnosis - they tell us how we are becoming more independent, etc.

Methinks they protest too much[g]. Why do they need to go on and on about how trustworthy they are, about how they will not force themselves on us? While "Lazaris" provides a tape on Self-Trust, the miscreants in the Forum are systematically eroding people's Self-Trust. And they refer to the Forum as an experiment in adult-based community and Peny as an evolved spiritual being.

I don't remember the steps "Lazaris" delineated to develop Self-Trust, but the first step ought to be quit the Forum[g].

Thank you for a marvelous, informative, and passionate post. I know the pain of which you speak, caused by the deep wound inflicted by betrayal.

As I have written here also, it was a study of hypnotherapy techniques which brought down the house of cards for me too. Like you, I was in a state of questioning and doubting due to the "Peny Big Lie", but I still was unsure, still hopeful even.

I was doing a search for "Lazaris" on the internet, and found a hypnosis site:

http://www.adventuresinliving.net

which outlined a hypnotherapy session in which one is guided to find their personal metaphors and archetypes for the purpose of identifying deeper issues and healing. As I read along, I became more and more upset as I recognized an almost identical pattern of a Lazaris "meditation" emerge.

One thing I have never found out is why or how that site is connected to Lazaris. Someone did note that on the front page there is a reference to Lazaris, but why or how the connection? Was Jach a fellow hypnosis student with the person who put up this site, or a student of his? I wrote and asked, but never received a reply.

This brings up another issue, that of the vague and inaccurate stories we are told about Jach's history. If Jach studied hypnosis at some point, don't we have a right to know that? Why all the fluffy fairy tales about Jach's past, and why didn't we all demand to know more before we invested in this guy?

Imagine what would happen if someone posted in the Forum and asked Jach if he had ever studied hypnosis! Do we have to speculate on the response? Let's face it, we aren't allowed to know. The only way we will ever know these things is for people who do know to speak up and tell us. So, if you do want to know, promote this site, and encourage those who have information to share it. We all have the right to know, and maybe for the sake of our sanity, the obligation to find out.

I have also found references to lawsuits against mind control groups specifically initiated over the issue of involuntary hypnosis. As I recall, the specifics of the lawsuit listed the hypnosis as a human rights violation. I also recall that the lawsuit was successful. I'll try to find the article which referenced this.

Ted and I studied and practiced meditation techniques prior to our introduction to the Lazaris materials, so we always knew that these were not actual meditations, but more accurately "guided visualizations". I like you Seeker, accepted Jach's promise that we were not being hypnotized. We were being hypnotized, you are correct.

The bigger problem I have with all this is to wonder to what extent we were being subliminally manipulated during these hypnosis sessions. One could argue that it's no big deal because the "meditations" were helpful, and left us feeling positive and wonderful. Well, that in itself is a hypnotic suggestion. How much of the feeling great was just nothing more than Jach deliberately and consciously using a technique which has been proven to leave people with a sense of well-being, and then attributing that to the great love we were receiving from the entity?

How many of these profound blending experiences were the result of post hypnotic suggestions?

Beyond all that, is the faith and investment we all placed in the teachings and techniques due to these marvelous "heart opening" sessions.

Crap, a Las Vegas showman could have given us the same feeling after turning us into a clucking chicken on stage and making a fool of us.

Were our strong feelings and beliefs about the teachings a result of post hypnotic suggestions? Were we hypnotized out of asking questions or thinking for ourselves?
Were dependencies being implanted in our subconscious minds, beliefs that we "needed" Lazaris, or that something bad would happen if we stopped using the techniques?

Who can tell to what extent we were manipulated and controlled by this hypnosis?

I do know that as each day passes, as I consciously evaluate all my "beliefs" which were established through my relationship to the Lazaris materials, I find that not only do I reject them, but I see how they have created a pattern of self doubt and feelings of failure and inadequacy within me.

Ted and I are in the process of negotiating a profitable little business deal which just fell out of the sky. It's going along with no problems, and I have no anxiety about it.

During my Lazaris years, given the same scenario, I would have first believed that the "falling out of the sky" was a result of my programming and processing, and then become extremely agitated about the whole thing, doing work to "sustain the energy", processing away any "blockages", programming my crystals, posting in the Crystal Cave, etc etc. Sometimes I think I lost deals like this, simply because I believed that I had to do all this work to keep them alive, and focused on that rather than just closing the deal like every other business person does on a daily basis.

So, yes, this is a tremendously important area to explore and think about IMO. And it's a damned good reason to be pissed off and to function as an incentive to really come to a decision about the "realness" of Lazaris.

If we were being hypnotized, suggested, controlled and manipulated, that is something vital to address.

I know that some here aren't at this moment wanting to invest in making that call, but from my perspective, it is extremely important to do that.

Of course, given the amount of time it took me to be ready and willing for that, I know that these things come in their own time.

Again, thanks for writing and sharing your thoughts and feelings about this very important issue. I think it is something that needs to be explored and addressed if we are to get to the real truth about our relationships with "Lazaris".

Lots of love,

Thank you for a marvelous, informative, and passionate post. I know the pain of which you speak, caused by the deep wound inflicted by betrayal.

As I have written here also, it was a study of hypnotherapy techniques which brought down the house of cards for me too. Like you, I was in a state of questioning and doubting due to the "Peny Big Lie", but I still was unsure, still hopeful even.

I was doing a search for "Lazaris" on the internet, and found a hypnosis site:

http://www.adventuresinliving.net

which outlined a hypnotherapy session in which one is guided to find their personal metaphors and archetypes for the purpose of identifying deeper issues and healing. As I read along, I became more and more upset as I recognized an almost identical pattern of a Lazaris "meditation" emerge.

One thing I have never found out is why or how that site is connected to Lazaris. Someone did note that on the front page there is a reference to Lazaris, but why or how the connection? Was Jach a fellow hypnosis student with the person who put up this site, or a student of his? I wrote and asked, but never received a reply.

This brings up another issue, that of the vague and inaccurate stories we are told about Jach's history. If Jach studied hypnosis at some point, don't we have a right to know that? Why all the fluffy fairy tales about Jach's past, and why didn't we all demand to know more before we invested in this guy?

Imagine what would happen if someone posted in the Forum and asked Jach if he had ever studied hypnosis! Do we have to speculate on the response? Let's face it, we aren't allowed to know. The only way we will ever know these things is for people who do know to speak up and tell us. So, if you do want to know, promote this site, and encourage those who have information to share it. We all have the right to know, and maybe for the sake of our sanity, the obligation to find out.

I have also found references to lawsuits against mind control groups specifically initiated over the issue of involuntary hypnosis. As I recall, the specifics of the lawsuit listed the hypnosis as a human rights violation. I also recall that the lawsuit was successful. I'll try to find the article which referenced this.

Ted and I studied and practiced meditation techniques prior to our introduction to the Lazaris materials, so we always knew that these were not actual meditations, but more accurately "guided visualizations". I like you Seeker, accepted Jach's promise that we were not being hypnotized. We were being hypnotized, you are correct.

The bigger problem I have with all this is to wonder to what extent we were being subliminally manipulated during these hypnosis sessions. One could argue that it's no big deal because the "meditations" were helpful, and left us feeling positive and wonderful. Well, that in itself is a hypnotic suggestion. How much of the feeling great was just nothing more than Jach deliberately and consciously using a technique which has been proven to leave people with a sense of well-being, and then attributing that to the great love we were receiving from the entity?

How many of these profound blending experiences were the result of post hypnotic suggestions?

Beyond all that, is the faith and investment we all placed in the teachings and techniques due to these marvelous "heart opening" sessions.

Crap, a Las Vegas showman could have given us the same feeling after turning us into a clucking chicken on stage and making a fool of us.

Were our strong feelings and beliefs about the teachings a result of post hypnotic suggestions? Were we hypnotized out of asking questions or thinking for ourselves?
Were dependencies being implanted in our subconscious minds, beliefs that we "needed" Lazaris, or that something bad would happen if we stopped using the techniques?

Who can tell to what extent we were manipulated and controlled by this hypnosis?

I do know that as each day passes, as I consciously evaluate all my "beliefs" which were established through my relationship to the Lazaris materials, I find that not only do I reject them, but I see how they have created a pattern of self doubt and feelings of failure and inadequacy within me.

Ted and I are in the process of negotiating a profitable little business deal which just fell out of the sky. It's going along with no problems, and I have no anxiety about it.

During my Lazaris years, given the same scenario, I would have first believed that the "falling out of the sky" was a result of my programming and processing, and then become extremely agitated about the whole thing, doing work to "sustain the energy", processing away any "blockages", programming my crystals, posting in the Crystal Cave, etc etc. Sometimes I think I lost deals like this, simply because I believed that I had to do all this work to keep them alive, and focused on that rather than just closing the deal like every other business person does on a daily basis.

So, yes, this is a tremendously important area to explore and think about IMO. And it's a damned good reason to be pissed off and to function as an incentive to really come to a decision about the "realness" of Lazaris.

If we were being hypnotized, suggested, controlled and manipulated, that is something vital to address.

I know that some here aren't at this moment wanting to invest in making that call, but from my perspective, it is extremely important to do that.

Of course, given the amount of time it took me to be ready and willing for that, I know that these things come in their own time.

Again, thanks for writing and sharing your thoughts and feelings about this very important issue. I think it is something that needs to be explored and addressed if we are to get to the real truth about our relationships with "Lazaris", Jach, Peny, and C/S, and to protect ourselves against any future attempts at psychic invasion.

We must, must, must, learn to know our own minds, and to protect them from the influences of manipulators, control freaks, and self-promoters.

Lots of love,

That is why I mentioned Ramtha in my last post to you. The Ramtha reality-set handed to his followers is accepted by them due to their trust, just as we accepted a reality-set originated by and continually fed into by Lazaris. It's hard for me to be very concerned about fairness regarding an explanation, logical or not, that is intended to support what I believe to be an exploitative falsehood.

What rings most true for me is the feeling of discomfort I described. That nagging, "something is wrong here," even though I had heard the explanation.I didn't accept the veracity of my feeling because I put the Lazaris reality-set ahead of my own. I'm regretting mentioning illusion vs. purely physical because I don't want to get side tracked.

Best to you,

I think that I'm luckier than most of you since I pretty much followed my head and didn't give them as much time and energy as all of the rest of you did. Maybe I was lucky.

If all of this turns out to be true--they are even worse than I thought. Well I have to go now. I'll talk another time. Be good. If you can't be good, be good at what you do.

Peace.

Thanks for the out on being good! I find it expedient to indulge in a little mischief now and again, call me a Fool, I hope I'm good at that anyway!

I think that the less we subjected ourselves to the meditations and seminars, meaning the less we were hypnotized, manipulated and indoctrinated, the easier it is for us to let go of our beliefs and faith in Lazaris.

Ted and I were big on the tapes, but we stopped breaking our backs and bank accounts to go to the workshops a few years ago.

I felt guilty about that for some time, and was just getting back into thinking that I should spend money I needed or wanted for other things to attend seminars again, but some magical miracle did prevent me from going. I think that was a really really good thing. I actually paid for an intensive at one point, and the very same day I was supposed to leave for the weekend was the day I put the final whammy on a really serious knee injury. By the time I got to SF for the evening I was in so much pain I couldn't believe it. I spent the whole night after the evening seminar in bed crying because I knew there was no way I could spend the rest of the weekend sitting through a seminar. I went home.

At the time I beat myself up for that, believing that I had sabotaged myself, and wasn't allowing for the "magic and miracles". Now I wonder if I wasn't protecting myself.

I wasn't healed enough to attend any seminars after that until the Millennium celebration, and you all know what a turning point that was for me. It was pure magic absolutely, because there I met some people who I know I will love forever, and I also got to look into the cold lizard eyes of one Peny North. That is a chill I will not soon forget.

So, it was the beginning of the end, and the beginning of forever for me. How much more magical can that get?

Sad for C/S, but happy for me, I did stand up that weekend, and I did take my rightful place among the Magicians. That was part was real, as was the itching nagging rotten feeling I got from the glare of the snakeyes.

So, be glad dolphingirl, that you did not put yourself through the grief, and be proud that your instincts held true. You didn't miss nuthin' (LOL) and you have so much more to experience all through your own sweet efforts.

Lots of love,

Katie

Don't get me wrong - I'm very convinced that Jach is faking. It's just that some evidence points to that and some doesn't. Adding weak evidence creates fodder for people to dismiss all the evidence, including the strong. Granted, if someone wants to dismiss solid evidence, that's up to them - I'm not here to convince anyone. But I still want to be discriminating with the evidence that I present.

You wrote: [[We know that we received rational explanations for things that might stir up mistrust and doubt.]]

Yes, they answered our objections before we had a chance to consider them on our own - an effective sales technique. That way they get to control the discernment process. It's quite clever - diabolical, but clever.

You wrote: [[What rings most true for me is the feeling of discomfort I described. That nagging, "something is wrong here," even though I had heard the explanation.I didn't accept the veracity of my feeling because I put the Lazaris reality-set ahead of my own]]

Oh, yes, I know there were many times that I dismissed my intuition as well. Partly because I wanted to believe in "Lazaris". But it may also be due to hypnotic suggestion. I cut them much more slack than I would normally.

I'm really glad to know that some of what wrote in my post helped you to feel more forgiving and compassionate about your involvement with Lazaris. I think most of us who chose to use the material are intelligent, successful (at least enough to afford it!), and earnesty seeking to expand our consciousness.

The CS operation is run so well that it's easy to hoodwink oneself occasionally to keep going on with it. Until you encounter the forum. Once outside of CS, things start getting some serious scrutiny, hard to do when inside that mind set.

Letting go of it brings up grief because it feels like a big loss, even though we know we haven't lost anything but a huge deception. Then the good feelings start , though it seems like this thing gets processed in layers. Because memories thoughts, feelings, experiences keep sufacing to be figured out and cleared.

I had a friend who left to live with Mafu. He gave up everything, including his bills. I saw him a couple of years later. By that time Mafu dictated EVERYTHING he did. However, my friend told me how he could now walk fearlessly on a slim board twenty feet off the ground. That made him feel powerful. He's a bright, wonderful person, but got sucked into a cult situation even more obviously exploitative than CS.

I also experienced a "hypnosis" session, and heard the explanation of how different it is than a guided meditation. There are a lot of areas that bring up outrage, but this is certainly one of the more serious ones.

Jach/Lazaris comes off with such confidence and authority. We are taking our power back now. And claiming our own authority. Too bad to have given it away in the first place, but the future looks fresh and clean.

Hope all the real love, and good, free feelings are coming your way. Looking forward to your posts too.

Lorca

Though we are all trying to put a truthful picture together here, obviously some things are going to be more significant to one person than another. I'm hoping to contribute to that true picture, but in doing so I'm describing my feelings and experience, as well as compiling facts.

I had a funny image today of shut-eyed Lazaris speaking to a wide-eyed audience, while the wide-eyed Ramtha has his blindfolded followers
stumbling around a coral in the dark. Growing pains!

Lorca

A lot of New Age goings on are pretty loosey-goosey. And lots of folks are ready to suspend their normal scrutinizing in this area -- over eager beavers. I've seen people believing some far fetched stuff just because it was written down in a book.

Like many others, I assumed that because the Lazaris material initially looked good, the source must be good too. I had a growing spirituality, but instead of being patient with my inner revelation, I dove into Lazaris's teaching to speed things up, and because I didn't have enough confidence about finding my own path without help. I sure didn't feel any authority about it. I actually had more powerful meditative experiences before CS, some of them were pretty scary, but at least they were all mine.

Just wanted to put my thoughts out about the circumstances of initial involvement.

I think that since my friends were more involved with Lazaris than I was, sometimes they didn't think that I was growing or learning as fast as they were. I might be wrong about that, but I don't believe I am. ; ) That's okay (just so any of my friends who are out there know that I didn't take any offense). This is because I didn't know the "lingo" and the special terms that are used. This is of course a method to keep you as part of the group and to make you feel special.

What do you think about the fact that it all really started to fall apart after the forum started? It must be hard for them all to keep their masks on all the time. In my opinion, it's why it's all starting to fall apart on them. You can only go against your true nature for a short while and now their true colors are shining through. By this statement by the way, I mean that it's starting to fall apart faster than it would have.

Okay, I'm going to check out the boards some more.

This is only about the fifth time I've written a reply to you and every time I have lost it! Geeessshh!

You bring up issues which I've pondered myself for a long time. Why did we blindly accept the Lazaris story? Somewhere we got and accepted the idea that we need "help".
I wonder where that came from? You suggest that maybe it was from lack of self-confidence, but you, like us and I'm sure many others had already embarked upon a spirital path and had our own personal experiences through our own efforts.

Then, along comes this idea that someone came to "help" us. I wonder why we thought we needed help?

The Forum is chock a block full of posts about the evils of offering help to people who don't need it. To do so is to play the Savior, and is a terrible thing. So, is Lazaris allegedly helping us in ways in which we can't help ourselves, or is Lazaris a Savior? Makes ya wonder, huh?

So, I'm still pondering this question as to where I got the idea I needed help, or that anyone could help me in my relationship to God/Goddess.

Share information, share experiences, debate and discuss, sure, those are all nice ways for spiritual people to interact, but help?

Is this strongly held belief the result of subliminal suggestion?

I don't know, but it sure is worth thinking about.

Lots of love,

Katie