What I have found works for me with previous beliefs of my groups is to question myself about them endlessly. I have shown you below pretty much how I approach it :o).

Katie said: Why did we blindly accept the Lazaris story? Somewhere we got and accepted the idea that we need "help".
I wonder where that came from? You suggest that maybe it was from lack of self-confidence, but you, like us and I'm sure many others had already embarked upon a spirital path and had our own personal experiences through our own efforts.

So, what I read here is the question, why did I fall for this guy? I think there are a lot of reasons. He had a lot of smart tricks specifically designed to circumvent your critital thinking abilities. He made some pretty wonderful promises. Maybe you were at a time where you really felt that the promises he offered was something you needed. While it might be possible that there was some kind of weakness in you for him to take advantage off, it is just as possible that you were simply just another strong idealistic person, who didnt question enough and fell prey. No need to think there is something wrong with us for being suckered in.

Katie said: Then, along comes this idea that someone came to "help" us. I wonder why we thought we needed help?

Or maybe the deal just seemed to sweet to pass up?

Katie said: The Forum is chock a block full of posts about the evils of offering help to people who don't need it. To do so is to play the Savior, and is a terrible thing.

In what way is it a terrible thing? How does he define being a savior? What does he say happens if you act the role of savior? My advice is, write down the whole belief. Look at what it is in that belief that might have played on fears. In this case fears of doing something wrong by helping or by playing savior? What does it exactly mean to play savior anyways?

Katie said: So, is Lazaris allegedly helping us in ways in which we can't help ourselves, or is Lazaris a Savior? Makes ya wonder, huh?

Ahh.. Ya gotta wonder about the double standards of cult leaders.

Katie said: Share information, share experiences, debate and discuss, sure, those are all nice ways for spiritual people to interact, but help?

What does "help" actually mean for you in this context? What does playing savior mean? What is good about helping? What is good about playing savior? How does playing savior and helping differ from each other? What can be the consequences of either helping or playing savior? What is not good about helping or playing savior?

How are spiritual people "supposed" to interact? Why? What is a spiritual person anyways? Why are we supposed to interact in any way differently? In which ways differently are we supposed to interact?

What did Jach/Lazaris teach you? What do you actually think about those teachings? What does other people say?

Look at this from as many angles as possible...

Katie said: Is this strongly held belief the result of subliminal suggestion?

It might be... time to closely inspect it, and see where that takes you maybe? :o).

Katie said: I don't know, but it sure is worth thinking about.

Sure sounds like it..

Take care,
Malene

You hit on some really powerful points about the whole Lazaris phenomena.

As you say, your friends didn't (or might not have) think you were growing or learning fast enough because you didn't invest as much time with the Lazaris materials. This is very cultlike. People in cults are trained to believe that they are on the fast track and have access to better and more information than anyone else. This thinking is rampant within the Lazaris community.

And you make two more important points..one is the lingo. That is called "loaded language" in cult terminology and it means special uses of terms which are understood only by the members. Negative ego, martyr, savior, self-pity, etc. are powerfully loaded terms within the Lazaris community.
The better you understand the loaded language, the better a cult member you are. We all studied and studied, and had these concepts constantly shoved in our faces in the Forum.

Then you mention how as you get more familiar with the terms, the ultimate outcome is that you realize how screwed up you are. So, instead of us ending up feeling better about ourselves we all ended up feeling endlessly inadequate, and totally screwed up.

Of course, Lazaris is always telling us that we are good enough, we have done enough work, but then here comes another tape telling us of a new blockage or aspect of our consciousness or behavior which proves that we are not good enough, not until we attend the seminar, buy the tape, do the techniques, buy another expensive crystal, etc.

Or, we go into the Forum, write a few sentences and are slammed against the wall for the next 15 days or so, or until a newer and more screwed up post comes along. This is the emotional yo yo that cults use to keep us constantly off base.

Then you also mention the peer pressure, another cult sign. Boy is there ever peer pressure in that Forum. You experienced it from your friends who were very loving and well meaning, I have no doubt, but true believers always tend to put pressure on those they love and care about to get more deeply involved.

You ask "What do you think about the fact that it all really started to fall apart after the forum started? It must be hard for them all to keep their masks on all the time. In my opinion, it's why it's all starting to fall apart on them. You can only go against your true nature for a short while and now their true colors are shining through. By this statement by the way, I mean that it's starting to fall apart faster than it would have."

I'm not sure that anything is falling apart. This website probably is the first time there has been an opportunity for the skeptics and disbelievers to get together and share experiences and thoughts, but I feel quite confident that people have been leaving all along. I'm sure there was a mass exodus after the Tradevest fiasco, for example.

C/S is really into keeping people away from each other except in the Forum where they can keep a close eye. They were absolutely insulting toward those of us who got together during the Millennium celebration, and boy did they work hard to do their damndest to separate us once they knew that we had formed into a little defined group.

I have heard other stories too, of people getting together during events, to trade or sell each other crystals, share or compare notes, etc, and C/S always goes ballistic when they hear about things like that too. I have reason to believe that they actually have moles in the audience and around the hotels, who report these "breaches" to C/S.
People have been banned from seminars for such crimes.

So, even though it is exciting and unique to be here on this site where we keep hearing these stories, I don't know that this is anything new. Was it PT Barnum who said "there is a sucker born every minute".
For everyone of us who leaves there is a new wide eyed innocent standing in line.

As to their masks, that is a topic unto itself. I don't know how they do it. The sadism in the Forum is an indication to me that those masks keep getting heavier and heavier, that those "stellar one's" are getting angrier and sicker by the minute.

Anyway, I'm going to post this quickly, my lights just flickered, and we could be losing power any second.

More later,

Lots of love,
Katie

I think I became involved with Lazaris because I wanted information, rather help, about something that is extemely important to me. ButI got hooked in, it seemed to be helpful information, then I began believing I "needed" more and more of that same information and that I wouldn't do as well without the help of Lazaris. While I was telling myself how fortunate I was to have such a great source for my spiritual growth, actually I had become dependant. When I said in my previous,"I didn't have enough confidence about finding my own path without help. I sure didn't feel any authority about it." I was looking for more knowledge, not someone to guide me. But I forgot enough of myself along the way to let someone else make my spiritual maps. And all the while we were told that we were the Map Makers. That is a cosmic joke.

Right now I am LOL at myself with sincerety and love. There is such a great beauty in who we all are, all of us seeking truth and answers to the mysteries of our very being. And I think Lazaris did help to answer a lot of that, but I've since learned that many others say the same things. But, like I said in a previous post, I don't regret my time with Lazaris "before" the forum. Through my times with Lazaris, I did connect with All That Is and haven't lost that connection, only now it's something that I know, rather than feel I need to go to a seminar to renew. Sometimes it's more intense than others, but that's all to do with my humaness, and I've learned it's OK to be such a human! Now I realize tht that connection was with me all along and just had to admit and be conscious of it.8-)

When meeting Lazaris, I wasn't searching for help in particular, I was curious, and was just overjoyed to find others who were seeking "something" and got back from Lazaris much more than I asked for, the LOVE being the grandest. IMO, Lazaris was the closest to God that we could ever "communicate" with in words and touch. There was no work involved! Lazaris was there for us always and all we had to do was put on a tape or music that he used at a seminar to "remember." It was the LOVE that got me hooked!!!!! And it was the fear of losing that great LOVE that caused so much pain after joining the forum. And it's more than OK to admit that I want and need to be loved. It's even better to honor and actively love myself, and have no need to honor and love myself by shaming, insulting, or humiliating another person the way it was done in the forum.

Someone said that they felt co-dependent with the forum and I can see that now. Codependency is a bunch of nasty games that are painful, someone being the bully/someone being the victim. I think the forum is one of the strongest codependent relationships I've ever seen, only in the forum the "gang" of bullys would gang up on one victim. Sometimes others who wanted to be a member of the "gang" would join the bullys. No one would jump in in defense because they were afraid or didn't have time to be the "savior" who would then get crucified. There's truth in that but is another half-truth as far as the forum goes. People were treated as though they were light brained imbiciles and were attacked and disrespected and were the "meat" for a bunch of pirana.(sp?)

Like I said, I can now LOL at "myself" for my dependency because I know that happened because of the love inside of me, but that's only after the healing. There is NOTHING to LOL about at the way people are treated in the forum. It's despicable that wonderful people are made to "cow-tow" to the pranks of these bullys because they are so afraid of losing the LOVE of God/Goddess/All That Is. THAT WILL NOT AND NEVER WILL HAPPEN!!! It's despicable and rotten to know how it all began with Tradevest and especially how it was hidden.

Now I'm rambling and it's your faults! 8-) You wonderful people have given me so much to think about. "Maybe" the forum was a test we created to see if we really would honor ourselves when it came down to it? 8-)hmmmmm
Even if that were true, that's no excuse to act as shamefully as the "gang" does.

Love and light,

Groovin Magi

I was just browsing through the archives as a result of a new poster and I found this thread. I found it very touching and poignant as it contains a good sense of the confusion, hurt and betrayed trust that are so common.

I think it's easy to forget when you're past the pain but I also think it's important to remember. Important to remember that there are those who are still 'under the ethers' and also important to remember in order to be happy at new found freedom.

This charlatan is still at large perpetuating his scams on others.

Maybe one day he'll get what he deserves.